To not have moved on from the referendum result?

[Niamer]

Hi. I am a remoaner. I have bored myself with talking about it online and with a couple of likeminded friends.
I was have never been political, was pretty disengaged before the referendum but a 100% gut-feeling kind of a remainer and really expected the vote to go our way.

Felt devastated at the result; I am a believer in working closely with our neighbours, have lived in other Eu countries, have friends here from other EU countries who feel unwelcome etc etc. AND all the attachment to Europe stuff aside, it just seemed a far safer economic option to stay put. Why go for a bumpy ride when you don't even like where you're going? Also felt really cheated when people's reasons for leaving became clear.
I am amazed that some Remainers have just gone quiet and got weary of it all. As far as Leave voters, there has been plenty of "suck it up" comments and total quiet from others. It hasn't been long but time is not healing for me. In fact the Tory conference seemed to take the grimness up a notch. Still so upset and wanting to protest (and have done in every way that I can think of)

I am currently in groups with staunch Remainers like myself, so I know how they are feeling. Outside of that, it isn't an easy topic to discuss. Remainers, Leavers, non-voters, please could you tell me where you're at? TIA

Exactly wrong but seeing as no one will actually tell us it's a bit difficult.

Two points here. One in fairness to Wrong Trousers they have.

Second point. There's been the whole 'leavers are thick and uneducated' narrative - which if you do except, you also have to except that this group of leavers will find it difficult to express in an intellectual way. It is like talking two different languages. Some how we need to learn the others language, and that's also about 'more educated' Remain voters listening in a different way and then being able to express it is terms that everyone can understand and take part in debate with.

This is not an easy task. I think there are clues there but it does require work and not being as confrontational (difficult at times, I know, and I;ve fallen foul of it). It can be frustrating.

(and fwiw I don't think leavers are stupid. Lacking in a particular type of education in many cases, yes. Stupid no. Note the difference).

I personally think anyone who has moved on from the referendum result, whether they are a leaver or a remainer is the one in the wrong rather than the other way round. There are still far too many unresolved issues and this divide between the sides that need to be answered for a whole host of reasons).

Smallfox, I don't know what this 'referendum' argument is to which you are referring.

Generally, people who are opposed to TTIP are also opposed to CETA.

You just seem to pick and choose the reasons you have decided other people have made decisions about the EU.

I'm not sure what the purpose is of you deciding for other people what their beliefs are and what they based them on.

Knowing about TTIP is not some arcane bit of knowledge.

I don't pick and choose the reasons, they were all on here for everyone to see prior to and just after the referendum.

Most people posting/ talking about TTIP did so in regard to the ISDS and NHS issue.

You do realise that any deal with the USA outside of the EU is going to be worse?

So your appraisal of UK knowledge about TTIP is based on reading some threads on MN?

If you have already decided what everyone thinks, what is the purpose of you being on this thread? To tell everyone not to bother talking because you already know what other people think better than they do?

You've effectively turned a really interesting thread where people were discussing the issues into something very polarised.

What? Are you on glue?

My appraisal of ttip being part of the EU debate wasn't just about that, it was how not was discussed in the media and lots of other points. In the EU referendum debate TTIP was mainly mentioned by leavers as a reason to leave so the NHS would be safe.

Your off on a tangent there..

With reference to the North East and possible reasons for voting Brexit: I follow the main regional paper on FB (Evening Chronicle for anyone who knows it) and there is an undeniable groundswell of both anti-immigration and anti-Westminster feeling. Any article about immigrants results in the comments thread being overwhelmingly a variation on the riff of "they're all benefit scroungers, we should be giving the money to our own homeless/our brave ex-soldiers" and any reference to the Northern Powerhouse or similar really uncovers the utter contempt in which many Northerners hold Westminster/Parliament.

Of course they don't speak for everyone in the region, but those feelings are undeniably there and people are happy to voice them in their dozens, sometimes hundreds depending on how clickbaity the original article.

"they're all benefit scroungers, we should be giving the money to our own homeless/our brave ex-soldiers"

Yes I have seen loads of evidence of this sort of comment online; anyone trying to stick up for them is very much in the minority. On a FB post about the refugees in Calais, they were "economic scum". Probably most of the people using this kind of rhetoric are empathic enough on a one-to-one, but there is this prejudice towards "others" and "foreigners". Whatever Brexit finishes up being, I think there is plenty of work to be done on this, starting in our primary schools.

People I know who campaigned for remain in the north east said that immigration was the issue most people were voting on.

Thank you, Dawn - if only Theresa May could rectify her mistakes so easily

I wasn't suggesting that the answers to why Sunderland voted leave are going to be found on this thread

Also, if immigration was a big issue, then perhaps that was because, gulp, people thought it was an important issue. And not because they believed everything they read in the press. I want to see the country have control of it's own immigration policy and I read the Guardian and Independent.

I think continuing to deny certain groups of people a voice by saying that when they say an issue is important to them, you know better, it very unhelpful and to be honest, a bit scary.

That all came out a bit garbled, but you get the gist.

So you think immigration being a big issue in an area where there is actually very low levels of immigration isn't a strange thing? Because immigrants aren't in the North East taking people's jobs or social housing, just like they aren't anywhere else.

Its prejudice, influenced by the media that has shaped that particular opinion.

"I think continuing to deny certain groups of people a voice by saying that when they say an issue is important to them, you know better, it very unhelpful and to be honest, a bit scary."

What a load of rubbish, so we should listen to people just because something is important to them?

Fear of zombies is at an all time high.

I think the question to be asked is why is immigration such an important issue for people when the actual level in their area is 2.5 - 3%? In general what's likely to be having the bigger impact here - actual day-to-day experience of life being adversely affected by immigrants putting prssure on local services, or perception that that's the case - a perception fed relentlessly by certain sections of the media drip-drip-dripping that immigration is the root of all ills?

TM is, as most politicians, all about sound bytes.

I wonder, now that the non-cosmopolitoan, 'local', working class people have been empowered how they will contribute to the UK. I mean our economy is based on globalisation and market economy, so will we all just end up being poor or what's the idea here? What will happen with those who are unable to afford private schooling but don't qualify for grammar schools, i.e. the majority of young people in this country? What sorts of jobs will they do in this post-brexit world? What kind of people are going to work for multi-national firms based in the UK? Teresa May's plan does not make sense at all.

The difficulty is that while people can generally identify a problem, they may not have the knowledge or expertise to identify the solution.

We are already seeing kick back from business against May's more populist suggestions at the conference.

At some point you have to reconcile what people want with what is practical and possible.

Agree page.

Interesting Radio 4 programme interviewed people in Sunderland about why they were voting leave, and immigration pressures were given as the reason.
But when they were questioned further they hadn't actually experienced any negatives from immigration directly.

Long waits to see a GP are often quoted and blamed on immigration, when it is usually not the cause of the problem at all.

Odd how TM is all "Yay for grammar schools!" but once you progress to university level she's all "Grr you educated liberal elites".

I am really curious because a market that is globally competitive relies on an educated workforce that is able to handle themselves in an international context with international cosmopolitan business or research partners. This hypothetical workforce will not be able to get along terribly well in business if it is not culturally sensitive, and able to perform in expert roles. What is the plan here?

What is the plan here?

I thought the plan was that Johnny Foreigner are falling over themselves to trade with us because we are the best people in the world, therefore we have no need of that cultural or negotiating expertise. And also because BMWs, prosecco and jam.

Quite Greenandwhite. That educated workforce is likely to be very upset by the damaging effects of the current shenanigans on the universities. It may also take offence at being labelled an "unpatriotic liberal elite" by TM and take itself off to somewhere more accommodating.

North here, immigration was the issue.
Transpose the word jobs with immigration and you have the answer.
Northern jobs are poorly paid.
They never used to be.
Unskilled immigration kept wages down and hours short.
It wasn't about skin hue, ethenicity.
We were called racist and bigoted, however.

User.

Immigration doesn't cause unemployment and the actual effect on wages is very, very minimal. Works out at wages being about £3 a week lower.