To not have moved on from the referendum result?

[Niamer]

Hi. I am a remoaner. I have bored myself with talking about it online and with a couple of likeminded friends.
I was have never been political, was pretty disengaged before the referendum but a 100% gut-feeling kind of a remainer and really expected the vote to go our way.

Felt devastated at the result; I am a believer in working closely with our neighbours, have lived in other Eu countries, have friends here from other EU countries who feel unwelcome etc etc. AND all the attachment to Europe stuff aside, it just seemed a far safer economic option to stay put. Why go for a bumpy ride when you don't even like where you're going? Also felt really cheated when people's reasons for leaving became clear.
I am amazed that some Remainers have just gone quiet and got weary of it all. As far as Leave voters, there has been plenty of "suck it up" comments and total quiet from others. It hasn't been long but time is not healing for me. In fact the Tory conference seemed to take the grimness up a notch. Still so upset and wanting to protest (and have done in every way that I can think of)

I am currently in groups with staunch Remainers like myself, so I know how they are feeling. Outside of that, it isn't an easy topic to discuss. Remainers, Leavers, non-voters, please could you tell me where you're at? TIA

RortyCrankle you sound very angry and bitter. Why is that? If you are so sure you made the right decision, you should be filled with self-righteous joy. Yet you sound defensive. I wonder why this is.

Broken I don't think that the divides were there already. I think they have been entered into the public consciousness with an associated rhetoric by Politicians and the Press seeking to exploit a natural human tendency to tribalism and xenophobia to divert attention from the impact of government policies. For sure some people were already bitter and frustrated but most of us had learned that these were not acceptable attitudes and to focus on being inclusive rather than exclusive, on our duties as responsible citizens towards society, and especially those less fortunate, it is written right through the rock of the ethos of most schools. I am sure we can all remember sitting through the Headteachers' homilies. On top of that you had Maggie encouraging us to get on our bikes and make loadsamoney but even that was with a certain positive moral ethos to it focused on work ethic. It was intended to be inclusive, an opportunity open to all.

All these terms "metropolitan elites" remoaners etc have all been entered into people's vocabularies. As I highlighted above most of us do not fall into one of theses defined segments, you can actually be a part of the "metropolitan elite" whilst still having both feet rooted in the north and understanding their feelings and concerns but also being a European and global citizen with experience and knowledge of other cultures and that what we have in common is more than sets us apart. As a marketeer I understand that you can segment society according to their identity, attitudes and perceptions but ultimately people are segments of one. What the politicians have done is to define us into segments which they have branded and then set us against each other, that was exactly what TMs conference speeches were about. These are false divisions designed to enable the politicians and the associated power networks, Murdoch and Dacre chief amongst them, to divide and rule.

However it is exactly how Hitler and Mao wielded power, it unleashes dangerous and destructive emotions.

I think Rory proves my point exactly, it is like they read "The thoughts of chairman May"

Rorty seems just as angry and bitter as any "Remoaner" really, a post full of negativity just expressed in a different way.

boffered cuts in corporation tax already announced will be factored into Nissans projections already.

The 10% is a complete stab in the dark. Whatever the figure, Nissan want support for their loss; where do you think that money will come from?

There's also the administrative burden associated with exporting into from outside the EU which us another enormous cost in both time and money which just makes the UK a less attractive proposition.

I'm continually amazed that people think this stuff will just go away or magically sort itself out.

I am a proud "Remoaner" Elements. I am angry still of course, but my overriding emotion is an intense despairing sadness. It really does feel like grief.

*I have friends and family members who voted remain and who voted leave. I don't feel divided or a million miles away from people based on their referendum vote.

I feel a million miles away from people who make massive generalisations about the French, the Welsh, Northerners, Londoners, Leave voters, Remain voters. I think they're causing a lack of social cohesion with their statements and often that they're hatemongering.

I don't think such polarised attitudes are going to help us tackle xenophobia or any other form of prejudice.

And actually I don't even feel a million miles away from them. It's pretty understandable behaviour that I've probably done myself many times over my life. But it isn't constructive.*

This is so well said Almond

rorty I think people have moved on from asking why people voted as they did- it's too late for that.

Yes Remain still want answers but they want to know what's going to happen not why we are were we are.

Because of the complete lack of consensus on what Leavers actually wanted it's impossible to gauge if anyone is actually getting what they want from this.

Everyday seems to be bringing more news that supports this; EU immigrants not actually being able to be deported etc.

Surely if you actually believed in what you voted for you should be able to contribute more positively to these threads and give us an indication of how you feel things are progressing so far.

It would make a refreshing change to hear that from any Leaver.

But I do feel a million miles away from the majority of people who voted leave. I have nothing in common with their world view.

Brokenbiscuit, you say this and then describe a nasty racist incident your DH suffered and say you feel a million miles from the people involved. So do many leave voters. I certainly do.

I find it strange that you say you have nothing in common with leave voters world view. How can you know the world view of all leave voters? I voted leave. Do you know me? Do you know if I am left or right wing, or if I am racist or not. If I am a raving capitalist or a Corbyn supporter?

I am interested in what you think the world view of a leave voter is? And I ask because I am genuinely trying to understand the division which has become apparent in this country because I think it will do a lot of damage if we can't move past it.

Well said BearBehind. I agree. We do need to move forward and the polite considered cooperation of those who brought us here would be helpful. Sneering at "Remoaners" who just won't pipe down and put up with it is ridiculous. this is a one-off no-compromises event from which there can never be any going back. In other scenarios there is always a "next best" position. For example, we might not like a particular government's education policy, but it's not all or nothing - our children DO still get to go to school. On this there is no compromise position however. We are in the EU or we are not.

There must be Leave voters who feel uncomfortable about the lies and manipulation (particularly as regards immigration) which brought us here. Even if they are happy with the result, surely they have questions as to the integrity of the campaign: or does the end justify the means for them?

Surely there are Leave voters who are uncomfortable with the nationalistic xenophobic hysteria of the Conservative party conference this week (after all, many Leave voters were at pains to tell us all they are not racist and were voting out for "other reasons"). Why don't we hear of their concerns? Can they give us an indication of whether what they see so far is what they expected/hoped for?

I haven't moved on either. The result made me sick to my stomach and I have not been able to listen to the radio. We've already had a letter come home from school asking for parents of children not born in the U.K. To declare it as part of a new 'census'

This is not the UK I want to live in or for my children to grow up in. Those saying its not the end of the world - you are ridiculously naive. Wait till the impact hits...

lottie How about some good old fashioned British-style civil disobedience? Whenever we're asked to give nationality, all of us should put "Narnia".

*other reasons" eh. Presumably different to other reasons.

Sorry, that was a bit antagonistic for this. refreshingly polite thread.

But GandT your invitation to leavers to explain their views on how things are going Brexitwise is very much phrased to imply you won't be believing a word they say (perhaps not deliberately I don't know and apologies if I have misinterpreted).

wrong it wasn't antagonistic because it didn't make sense- inverted comma fail

perhaps if some leavers offered us their views on how things are going we'd find out if we believed them

It seems a very convienient excuse to say 'I'm not telling you anything as you won't believe me/ I'll get shouted down etc etc.

It couldn't possibly be the case that the reality is Leavers aren't very happy but don't want to admit it could it?

The letter says if you were born in the UK you don't have to reply. I think there should be more awareness that people shouldn't feel forced to comply with it - the wording suggests they do.

"I am interested in what you think the world view of a leave voter is"

The world view of a leave voter is, at the very least, nationalistic.

Bear - I don't believe things will magically sort themselves out. Nissan have met with government presumably to state the concerns of the company in an effort to have them heard and factored into negotiations which are yet to start. They have said they are optimistic.

The 10% may well be a stab in the dark but it's coming from the UK car industry and based on their fears.

Do you really believe that ALL leaver voters think the issues will magically resolve?

No, I don't believe they ALL think that but a lot of those that will potentially be the most affected by it, for example, the people in the North East, seem to be ignorant to the potential consequences.

If you don't things will magically sort themselves out, where do you think the money to support Nissan will come from?

What kind of precedent will any potential deal set for other big businesses?

If the UK has to support them too then what will be left for the disenfranchised people that voted for this?

How predictable I am neither angry nor bitter - sorry to disappoint, I am absolutely thrilled with the result, as I correctly predicted on this board. Not interested in giving answers Bearbehind - the decisions are not mine to make, its for the Government to take us forward which they are now doing.

To end on a positive note: The leader article in my Telegraph today confirms that all 3.6 million EU nationals currently living in Britain will be allowed to stay following Brexit. I think this is excellent news and hope Remainers also see it as a positive although no doubt you'll find something to whinge about. Presumably at some point in the future there will be a cut-off point for new arrivals who will be dealt with on a different basis which is sensible.

Must away before the negativity seeps down the computer wires - see you in a month

WrongTrouser My question is an innocent one, not a leading one. I'm genuinely interested to hear from any Leave voters as to whether they are happy with where Brexit is going so far in terms of what it might mean. If you'd like to elaborate on what you hoped for in terms of Brexit when you voted that would be great. I'd just like to understand where people are coming from I guess because I can't see anything positive that is likely to unfold from Brexit.

I don't know what you are getting at when you suggest I won't believe a word you say.....I'm genuinely curious and would love an honest response.

rorty, I asked for your opinion on how things are going.

That's not expecting you to gave all the answers, it's asking what you think?

Surely you can manage that?

Rorty, you are a coward. Running away just like David Cameron et al.

You don't have to give answers? You don't have any just like our government.

A pig's ear.

Rorty, you are a coward. Running away just like David Cameron et al.

You don't have to give answers? You don't have any just like our government.

A pig's ear.

sorry rorty, phone fail and I missed your comment about immigration.

It's interesting you think it's great that all EU migrants will be able to remain and you only 'presume' there'll be controls for future immigrants.

That would indicate immigration wasn't high on your list of priorities so, given it's the governments priority, despite the slight technical hitch that Telegrpah piece highlights, surely you can't actually be quite as delerious with the situation as you claim to be?