To not have moved on from the referendum result?

[Niamer]

Hi. I am a remoaner. I have bored myself with talking about it online and with a couple of likeminded friends.
I was have never been political, was pretty disengaged before the referendum but a 100% gut-feeling kind of a remainer and really expected the vote to go our way.

Felt devastated at the result; I am a believer in working closely with our neighbours, have lived in other Eu countries, have friends here from other EU countries who feel unwelcome etc etc. AND all the attachment to Europe stuff aside, it just seemed a far safer economic option to stay put. Why go for a bumpy ride when you don't even like where you're going? Also felt really cheated when people's reasons for leaving became clear.
I am amazed that some Remainers have just gone quiet and got weary of it all. As far as Leave voters, there has been plenty of "suck it up" comments and total quiet from others. It hasn't been long but time is not healing for me. In fact the Tory conference seemed to take the grimness up a notch. Still so upset and wanting to protest (and have done in every way that I can think of)

I am currently in groups with staunch Remainers like myself, so I know how they are feeling. Outside of that, it isn't an easy topic to discuss. Remainers, Leavers, non-voters, please could you tell me where you're at? TIA

How much time do medical students spend in the NHS prior to graduating?

And are there other HCPs who are funded through the NHS? Do some get NHS bursaries?

Ron - I am bothered (or boffered) about a move to the right it is not what I used my vote for and seems to be an agenda of TM. I would be equally bothered about a move to the far left. As I said I don't think everything in the garden is rosy but I do think leaving is not all doom and gloom. Time will tell and if I got it wrong I won't hide away or pretend I voted the other way. I am big enough to say I got it wrong. As we are right now - I stand by the way I voted.

Scary There is for various exceptional reasons a legal exemption to the employment rights legislation for the armed forces which apart from anything else is rooted in history. It would be very hard to argue that there should be any new exemptions, or that doctors should be singled out as an exemption, unless you are going to create a precedent that would create issues not just for British / inherited EU employment law (which of course TM has pledged will remain) but also the agreed international labour standards. I am no expert on the law except in so far as we were briefed by Council but I can see that this would be not just difficult to legislate but heavily challenged in the courts. I hope that like the lists of Foriegn employees this was a crowd pleasing proposal for conference that will wither in the face of practicality but if it were to be forced through it would be another lurch to the right that damaged some of the hard fought for principles of employment law. That is all quite apart from the damage to the already low morale of the medical profession and pretty ineffective if after four years they are going to leave anyway and leave the pool of potential Registrars / Consultants, where the real shortages lie, much deminished. I do know a lot of British medics and nurses overseas and they are there because of better working conditions, not money.

almond it varies according to the clinical emphasis of the degree course, some are more ward based and use problem based learning, some are more classroom /test based. However a student doctor prior to graduation has not got the proven competence to work unsupervised, by definition. They implement their learned skills unsupervised as junior doctors.

So would the government's justification then be based on access to the NHS that students are getting during their degree?

That makes it very different to many other degree courses, as potentially a large part of the degree is based on access to a workplace (and patients, the public), and that workplace should be able to put some contract based obligations in place?

Is that what the restriction is on not training many more doctors? That they need access to patients?

I know many students who have the ability and desire to be doctors who end up on courses like biomed instead, because there simply are not enough places in medicine.

In terms of opportunity, I'd like us to train more than enough doctors for the NHS, knowing some will want to go overseas. I'd like more young people to go into medicine.

But maybe a barrier is access to hospitals for training?

I think the barrier has been an unwillingness to pay. Full stop. Now that apparently the country has told Theresa May that we all hate other European Citizens, the Govt. have suddenly decided that they might have to pay to train a few more. Do Hunt and May realise just how long it takes to train as a Consultant? About the earliest age you can qualify is mid-thirties. So a scheme starting in 2018 won't produce new Consultants until about 2035. Theresa May and Jeremy Hunt will be long gone by then.

The Sunderland plant although competitive, isn't the only one in the EU and the Nissan Renault partnership means that moving to equally capable plants is easy, and that they will avoid double tariffs.

They will be less competitive due to the 10% after leaving the EU.

boffered what 10% are you referring to?

You also mentioned cuts in corporation tax? Even if that were to happen, where will the money for that come from, or more specifically what will lose out because of this reduced revenue?

I'm in a similar position to you, OP - a remainer and still devastated. I'm sorry if that seems OTT to some people, but it's genuinely how I feel.

I am gutted that I'm likely to be deprived of my EU citizenship. I realise that it meant nothing to many people, but it was hugely important to me. I feel sad that my dd won't have the same rights as I once enjoyed.

I'm frightened by the rise of the right, and by the xenophobic rhetoric now being spouted by the Tory party, apparently in the name of the leave voters. My DH was racially abused outside our house the day after the referendum, for the first time ever since we moved to the town where we now live. I fear for my daughter's future sense of belonging in the only country she has ever called home.

I am anxious about the economic impacts of Brexit. My own employer has already said that there will be redundancies if we pull out of the single market. Even if my own job is safe - and it may not be - I fear for the jobs of my colleagues. And more generally, I fear for the UK economy and how it will all pan out.

Being told to accept the result, and just put up and shut up really isn't helpful. I accept that the result of the democratic vote was in favour of leave. That doesn't mean that the leave voters were right all along, nor does it mean that I now have to like the direction in which the leave voters are blindly leading us. It just means that more people voted leave than remain. Those who are somehow irritated by the fact that the remain voters aren't now falling into line to support Brexit would appear to have a very tenuous understanding of the democracy that they claim to cherish so dearly.

The argument is that nationhood, shared identity and a shared way of doing things are the best model that we have for successful societies.

The problem is, I was born and bred in Britain, and I don't have any sense of shared identity or a shared way of doing things with the vast swathes of leave voters. Their values and beliefs are a million miles away from my own, so how is that a solid foundation for a successful society? Who gets to decide which British values and which ways of doing things are the "right" ones?

The leave voters aren't currently blindly leading us though, are they?

There was a referendum, people had an opportunity to vote on that day, and after that leave voters have no more say or involvement in what happens next than remain voters do. They're not leading us.

All the decisions are taken by the government and negotiated between the government and the EU.

It depends on how many other people feel their values are a 'million miles' away from other people's based on a referendum vote.

If many people agree with you, then we have low social cohesion and are a less successful society.

Fair point, almond. They are not leading us now, but they have led us to this point, and the politicians are continuing to lead us in the direction in which they imagine the leave voters might want us to go. Or at least, they are using this imagined mandate to justify whatever they are now choosing to do, and I am not seeing large numbers of leave voters rise up and say that this wasn't what they voted for....but perhaps that will come.

If many people agree with you, then we have low social cohesion and are a less successful society.

Yes indeed, and this referendum has laid the lack of social cohesion bare. Perhaps these divides were always there, but we're certainly feeling them more acutely now.

Bear - the 10% is a tariff the UK car industry fear will be imposed by the EU following brexit.

The 2015 budget reduced corporation tax from April 17 to 19% and again in 2020 to 18%.

How are you suggesting that people, whether leave, remain or non voters, are going to 'rise up' against the government?

Biscuit, it has laid the lack of social cohesion bare by the way people have behaved over it.

I have friends and family members who voted remain and who voted leave. I don't feel divided or a million miles away from people based on their referendum vote.

I feel a million miles away from people who make massive generalisations about the French, the Welsh, Northerners, Londoners, Leave voters, Remain voters. I think they're causing a lack of social cohesion with their statements and often that they're hatemongering.

I don't think such polarised attitudes are going to help us tackle xenophobia or any other form of prejudice.

And actually I don't even feel a million miles away from them. It's pretty understandable behaviour that I've probably done myself many times over my life. But it isn't constructive.

Almond Some links on the question of training health professionals. This is not ground zero, this is a government who are culpable for the failure to instigate the training of more uk doctors / nurses and relying on those coming from overseas, because it costs less. They have actually removed from next year the bursary scheme for nurses which was very successful in attracting applicants. Instead they will have to take on £50000 of debt for the privilege of working alongside their paid colleagues (student nurses can take on a lot more of the nurses responsibilities on the wards than can an unqualified doctor in terms of diagnosis / treatments etc.) It is obviously short termism because most nurses will never earn enough to pay back their debt anyway. The spin is that they will use the money to train more nurses but it was the bursary scheme that was attracting young people, and mature applicants into the profession in the first place.

www.theguardian.com/society/2016/jul/21/nhs-bursaries-for-student-nurses-will-end-in-2017-government-confirms
careers.bmj.com/careers/advice/Why_don’t_we_train_more_doctors_than_we_need%3F
www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2016/10/05/letters-plans-to-train-more-doctors-require-vastly-bigger-nhs-sp/

Well, speaking out against the rhetoric that we heard at the Tory conference last week might be a start. Countering the repeated suggestions that these new draconian policies are what people voted for. I don't know tbh.

I can't really talk, as I'm not taking action myself. I feel so depressed by the whole thing that I've sort of given up - just accepted that what will be will be, no matter how shit it all turns out to be. And yes, I'm utterly ashamed of feeling like that.

Thanks Rondo. I've been more concerned by the nurses' situation than the doctors'. When I was a teen, student nurses were paid to train.

I have friends and family members who voted remain and who voted leave. I don't feel divided or a million miles away from people based on their referendum vote.

And I'm glad for you that you feel like that. But I do feel a million miles away from the majority of people who voted leave. I have nothing in common with their world view.

I also feel a million miles away from the people who told my DH outside our own house that he would have to fuck off back to his own country because the country had voted leave. That's not about my reaction to the leave voters, it's about people suddenly feeling that racism and xenophobia is acceptable now in our society.

Lack of social cohesion? Yes. Made worse by the referendum? Perhaps not, but definitely made more visible.

I ration myself to only reading this EU Ref board once a month. Why? Because it's filled with Remainers who are so negative about everything and as we know, negativity is bad for one's health.

To the still angry Remainers: Nothing I have read on this thread is new or different to any of the thousands of other posts or threads that have preceded it. It's regurgitating endlessly 'the sky is fallling' which doesn't, of course, happen but you are all so so desperate for disaster to befall the country and particularly the Leavers to prove you right that you hope by spouting doom over and over and over, that it will make it happen.

You repeatedly demand Leavers should explain themselves and their actions only to then rip them and their reasons to shreds, calling them as thick as pigshit, stupid, uneducated, racist, xenophobic and a myriad of other delightful expressions. We owe you nothing and I don't know about other Leavers but I have no inclination to explain anything for that reason. However, what I will say is that I voted Leave because I believed it to be the best thing for the country as a whole. I believed it was too important to base it on any narrow reasons such as whether relative A wanted to go and work in Germany or relative B wanted to study in Paris.

Well, my time is up. I look forward to reading the thread again in November - until then - chin up

Then to answer your question, the people who represent cohesive British culture and values are the vast majority of leave voters, and the vast majority of remain voters, who are actually all pretty similar to each other.

And all presumably a million miles away from you.