To not have moved on from the referendum result?

[Niamer]

Hi. I am a remoaner. I have bored myself with talking about it online and with a couple of likeminded friends.
I was have never been political, was pretty disengaged before the referendum but a 100% gut-feeling kind of a remainer and really expected the vote to go our way.

Felt devastated at the result; I am a believer in working closely with our neighbours, have lived in other Eu countries, have friends here from other EU countries who feel unwelcome etc etc. AND all the attachment to Europe stuff aside, it just seemed a far safer economic option to stay put. Why go for a bumpy ride when you don't even like where you're going? Also felt really cheated when people's reasons for leaving became clear.
I am amazed that some Remainers have just gone quiet and got weary of it all. As far as Leave voters, there has been plenty of "suck it up" comments and total quiet from others. It hasn't been long but time is not healing for me. In fact the Tory conference seemed to take the grimness up a notch. Still so upset and wanting to protest (and have done in every way that I can think of)

I am currently in groups with staunch Remainers like myself, so I know how they are feeling. Outside of that, it isn't an easy topic to discuss. Remainers, Leavers, non-voters, please could you tell me where you're at? TIA

gratesnakes Do you not see that the recent decision to train more doctors is linked to the decision to leave the EU?

This type of incredibly naive statement shows the level of political astuteness so many voters have. No 'decision' has been made to train more doctors. The Tories said a few words at a conference to justify their stance against foreign workers and you think a decision was made. If there was any political will to train doctors, more training would have been offered before we hit crisis point and something could have be done to reduce the enormously high undergrad and postgrad fees, which put a medical career out of reach of most people.
Training doctors has fuck all to do with the EU and someone spouting something at a conference does not mean 'a decision' has been made.

...and if we do get to a point where an actual decision to train more doctors is made, what will the government do to enable it to be implemented and how will we cope with the skills shortage in the years is takes doctors to qualify?
How the fuck does anyone link government policy, or lack of, with the EU?

Just by no reasoning the number of places at Uni? Or at least that was my understanding (and the way I've always seen the number of people in certain profession been regulated in other countries - they make an evaluation of the number of doctors/engineers available, the number of professionals needed in 5 ~ 10 years depending on length of study and train more people)

The cost of the fees IS a major issue though, especially whe. You then think that they want to restrict people going away after finishing their training on the ground that 'it costs too much money to rain doctors'

Nissan has already being n talks with TM asking her for some assurance that if the UK leaves the single market, then the government will make up for the taxes they will have to pay.
Otherwise, the two models build in Sunderlaand are arriving at the end of their life so yes, in a few years time, they will go, having made the investments somewhere safer and cheaper.

There are some grammar schools in that area but not a lot which means that they are easily out of reach from a certain part of the NE.
YY about Ripon, then the next on is in Newcastle.
I'm not aware of any other further north.

FWIW, Harrogate, Leeds etc... Aren't in the NOrth East. Even Ripon is in North Yourshire rather than the NE. Well from the pov of someone living in there. I'm sure that from London it all looks the same

I was deeply sad about the leave vote and some behaviour that certain members of this country believed it permitted. However I tried to take the view that the majority voted to leave and must have had good reasons to do so; even if I couldn't fathom what they were and was disgusted by some of the attitudes that were displayed but that somehow it would be ok in the end.

I am sadder now after a simply horrible Conservative party conference. The referendum vote didn't give TM a mandate for the xenophobic, hateful comments she made. She has no mandate for a hard or soft Brexit. She is making it up as she goes along with the three chuckle brothers (BJ/DD/LF) who she also laughs at and slaps down whenever they speak.

Apparently I am now a part of an elite that hates British people despite being one. I'm so very sad and I think it will take me a long time to stop being so.

Sunderland voted out by over 60%. Will Nissan down tools and go elsewhere I don't believe so, will they freeze investment in the plant yes they will and have already announced it. Nissan is a big NE employer but it does not replace the mining industry, ship building industry or steel industry by a long shot.

boffered I don't understand your logic in the above post.

You almost seem to be saying that Nissan won't leave the UK because Sunderland voted out by 60%.

No one is saying Nissan will pull out overnight but, if it is no longer beneficial for them to be in the UK, which will be the case if we lose acces to the single market, then they'll stop further investment, run it down and eventually close.

I don't disagree that Nissan hasn't replaced mining or shipping industries but the reality is those jobs have long gone, it seems a very odd train of thought to think the area can afford for its latest biggest employer to leave too.

No way can Sunderland afford to lose Nissan. They employ thousands!

But the UK government will in effect have to bribe them - and others - to remain.

It will cost us a a lot.

It's so dim witted and short sighted.

And what about when the big American companies pull out of Ireland because the EU is making them pay the "saved" tax even though the Irish government doesn't want billions of Euros?

What about it? What's that got to do with Brexit, Nissan and Sunderland?

Tax is a completely separate issue to trade tariffs.

It might be a different issue but the outcome could be the same

scared from the point of view of someone born and bred there the schools mentioned are in Yorkshire first and the north along with the others in Lancashire, second. I made the point that you would not necessarily regard them as in the North East (though in Ripon you do get North East regional news on TV ) I can assure you that my experience of the middle classes taking up the places in northern grammar schools via the expansion of private preps / the tutoring racket is just as personal as my experience of London grammar schools now having proportions of BME, specifically Asian pupils, in excess of 70%, that do not reflect the socio economic profile of the surrounding communities for the same reasons. Admissions arrangements have moved away from attempting to be based on ability regardless of social background, as they were even 30 years ago, and certainly when Theresa May was in her grammar school (and I in my northern one) because of the legal requirement for scrupulous measurable fairness. It is all about objective scores, with no subjective input from eg teachers and I do not see how TM is going to succeed in changing that. The result has been that admission to grammar schools for all but the most able requires endless repetitive practise of tests often in private prep schools or tutoring factories and that takes money and commitment on the part of parents. Hence the fact that Gramnar Schools fail to reflect the socio economic profile of their community and are vehicles of middle class privilege and totally failing to be vehicles of social mobility.

The thing about most of the people who live in London is that we come from somewhere else, some of us even from the north, and still have roots in the communities there too.

TM will also encounter problems with the legal framework if she tries to implement the proposal to make UK doctors and nurses remain in the UK for four years after qualification. I was responsible for my companies scheme for sponsoring employees to return to higher education and we could not enforce a requirement for those sponsored to remain in the organisation after they graduated because you run up against laws designed to protect employees being forced into remaining with an employer, effectively indentured labour /slavery. Of course we understood that we had to make sure that we treated our employees in a way that would make them want to stay on voluntarily but from my, again personal, experience of what is driving doctors and nurses to move overseas, longer hours, being responsible for the care of impossible numbers of critically ill patients, even before Jeremy Hunt's proposed changes, good luck with that happening.

It is on a smaller scale the lack of basis in reality that we see in the Brexit strategy, now being challenged in court. Fine crowd pleasing words at conference but the result of the actions that can / will be implemented will be very different, and not something I anticipate being easy to live with if you have any sort of aspiration to a fair society.

Be under no illusions about Nissan in Sunderland, the reason for being there was the access to the EU markets so they could avoid tarrifs, if that goes the models built there will come to the end of their life span and new investment won't be coming.

30,000 jobs in the north east directly and indirectly rely on Nissan, even more when you include the impact of course sumer spending from wages at the plant. If it goes it will be as bad as shipbuilding going too.

But Davros, tax avoidance isn't allowed. Those US companies will have to pay their way.

We, on the other hand, have a choice.

We don't have to go for hard Brexit. We can avoid this car crash.

I really don't see the connection between companies avoiding tax in Ireland and Nissan pulling out from Sunderland because we have chosen trade tariffs.

Tax avoidance is legal. Tax evasion is not - even governmentally encouraged tax evasion which is what the ECJ considered the inducements the Irish Government gave to Apple to be.

Iirc (and I haven't googled to check), the deciding factor was that the tax breaks offered weren't available to all.

Because the companies have abided by Irish tax regulations but broken EU ones.

So the company has chosen Ireland, as Nissan has chosen the UK.

Ireland has chosen the EU and the UK has not chosen the EU.

The EU has chosen to apply these regulations in Ireland (although it exempts countries from EU regulations all the time - notably professional standards in Germany favouring German workers and nationalisation in Italy favouring Italian business) and the EU will have a hand in choosing what kind of Brexit we have.

Almond, the point is that we don't have to impose WTO etc tariffs by leaving the single market. We are choosing to. Nissan will leave.

It's all very well saying "Oh two to ten years of economic pain. I don't mind."

I bloody well mind! It's utterly barmy. And after two to ten years (although where these numbers are plucked from, I've no idea), we think it'll all be okay.

Slip slip sliding into world stage economic irrelevance..........Unless our government steps in and bribes Nissan etc to stay.

It's just nonsense.

Bear - sorry no what I was saying is that Sunderland voted out despite Nissan. The Sunderland plant is currently one of their most competitive and productive sites. They will need to bid within their own company to produce the next generation vehicle in a couple of years. They will be less competitive due to the 10% after leaving the EU. BUT the area still voted to leave and the company is in talks with government seeking compensation. I guess you could look at that two ways - one they can't survive without it and will have to pack up and go or two that they know Sunderland is a productive plant with trained competent staff they need and they are as a private company seeking to preserve the bottom line. Maybe they will look at the proposed cut in corporation tax and see uk against higher rates in spainish production plants, maybe it will look at the lowered pound as a boon for exports. Maybe, perhaps who knows not me only the Nissan board will know that. The terms are not set yet trade deals and tax rates are unknown. Nissan have frozen investment not said they will leave.

Ron - I view NE and Yorkshire and Humber as two separate areas. Ripon school is a long way from me. There are not state grammers in my perception of the NE. It supports my original post people here don't feel affected by such an impact as they feel removed from it.

Yes, but Ireland and the EU are also making choices.

I am not for or against leaving. I'm not here to try and make hyperbolic statements.

The EU is not some kind of natural law that cannot be altered. It makes decisions about what regulations it does and does not apply to the UK, Germany, France, Ireland.

That's why Ireland attempted to negotiate over Apple.

Whatwould TM will also encounter problems with the legal framework if she tries to implement the proposal to make UK doctors and nurses remain in the UK for four years after qualification. I doubt it. It's done with other public sector employers, so why not the NHS? You do a return of service in HM Forces for having your degree funded, and if you get a retention bonus, so why not do the same for the medics?

And this has been a very measured thread. I haven't made any comments about what will happen to the economy, so your statement that it is all very well saying xyz is misleading as I haven't remotely said any such thing.

Boffered The point I was making was that all these proposals TM has announced, dressed up as helping the "just managing", and the regions, of which allowing new grammar schools to open are just one, are not signalling any real change for the people of the north. Any new schools opening, either as grammar schools or Catholic Schools selecting on faith, in the North East (however you care to define it ) will be very unlikely to act as vehicles of social mobility for the families who voted out of frustration with social deprivation or feeling left behind. The existing northern grammar schools, and indeed the Catholic Schools in middle class areas of the north (and the areas in which the Catholic Church opens / plans to open new schools are overwhelmingly middle class, and will only increase the tendancy of Catholic Schools, where they are oversubscribed, to fail to reflect in their pupil cohort the level of deprivation in the community) illustrate that these proposals will please middle class voters and those older middle class voters sat in their comfy armchairs in the Home Counties but do little to actually address the underlying problems of the north /north east. As I said at the start of this exchange, how do you feel about this lurch to the right?

Graduates can be made to work for a particular body if that body sponsored them to do their degree and the obligation was in the Ts & Cs they signed when they accepted the sponsorship.

That's how the armed forces' scheme works.

If a medical student gets a place and takes out an ordinary student loan, I don't see how he/she can be made to work for anyone in particular after graduating.