To be fed up of comparisons with 1930s Germany in U.K. politics?

[jessica29054]

Surely a better and far less potentially offensive comparison is the 1980s?

Labour in disarray, therefore weak opposition, and a female PM of course.

Comparisons with the rise of the extreme far right in Germany have little place. The BNP are the equivalent to Hitler and his party and thankfully have little mainstream support.

Trust me, there is nothing unelectable about that man.

Nothing? Really?

Speaking to a crowd of people that support you is very different to convincing those that don't and whose votes you need.

Numbers that attend a rally no matter how big does not equate to the many million others that aren't there.

The Nazis got into power in 1933. My only argument against the 'it's like the 30s in Germany' argument is historical inaccuracy - we're not quite there yet.

We should be comparing what's going on now to the collapse of the late Weimer Republic, for the most accurate comparison socially, politically and economically - say 1929-1932.

I don't think we're going to see an exact repeat of what happened then. It'll be different, more subtle, less destructive but still damaging if we continue down this path.

But the analogies are being made because there are obvious analogies there to be made. And people Cassandraing about it know that those who do not learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.

That's why some of us have to stand up, because we need to show we learnt from what our ancestors told us. If your family has never experienced what it's like to live under a regime like we're describing, you will not see the warning signs.

How patronising. You don't know about other posters back grounds or experiences.

PigletWasPoohsFriend

Anyone who can't see the comparisons either hasn't experienced it, learned about it or is just burying their head in the sand.

I've not read news reports making comparisons...and I've not read the thread! (boy, will I be in trouble with the thread police), but there were particular circumstances in Germany that led to the rise of Hitler and National Socialism that are in no way comparable to the UK now.

The main reason was the open, festering wound and bubbling resentment left by the Treaty of Versailles, the War Guilt Clause and massive War reparations - which made Germans bitter and resentful and fed up of being a pariah in Europe. In this context Hitler's message of lebensraum and future greatness was a refreshing change.

I really can't see how this scenario is analogous to the UK today. We haven't been roundly condemned or (in our perception) ill treated by the rest of Europe, or recently lost a major World War.....

I promise to read the thread later! (off out)

hmcAsWas

Except there is a lot of resentment over our involvement in Iraq. There is the perception that we are treated badly in Europe and that the EU was our puppetmaster (same way Germany felt like they were being limited by the Treaty of Versailles), hence Brexit.

The "refreshing change" for us is politicans being tough on immigration, their latest scapegoat. Trust me, we're heading down a slippery slope.

You can't see it because you don't want to.

Trust me, there is nothing unelectable about that man

How odd on a thread that is discussing the fears of the rise of the right Corbyn's connections are once again ignored

He is unelectable because he has shown solidarity towards the IRA and befriended other terrorist groups

Along with other concerns about his leadership and the fact we have never voted in a far left government but even if he was popular and successful at leading the party his connections are what will ultimately destroy any chance of labour winning an election while he leader and McDonnell is his righthand man

Anyone that thinks they won't matter when people vote in the general election is incredibly naive

How odd on a thread that is discussing the fears of the rise of the right Corbyn's connections are once again ignored

Completely agree.

Oy excuse me Thatsmein

Get your own bin men. All ours are good old brummies and one or two fairly hot!

Oh also anti Semitism was rife in many European countries at the time - not just Germany....

Its complicated to get it over in a couple of posts but Hitler blamed the Jews for the Weimar Republic - the immediate post war government which signed up to Versailles and was ultimately overturned by disaffected groups of the left and right - Walter Rathenau (Jewish) was a signatory to the treaty and was assassinated a couple of years later for example. Hugo Preuss, another Jewish man, wrote the constitution for the Weimar republic. There was much scape goating of Jewish intellectuals...

So - again, to emphasise, it was the interplay of many different factors which caused the rise of National Socialism.

Just not the same in the UK right now!

Nakatomi

Are you a prepper too?

Seriously I can't understand why you arnt turning your attention to the abysmal state of the Labour Party under Corbyn?

You whitter on about how terrible the Tories are but refuse to acknowledge that the way to Change things is to have a robust electable opposition party.

Nakatomi - I don't think you can see the grumbles that UK citizens had about out treatment in Europe as in any way equivalent to the very visceral, emotional response the Germans had to the War Guilt clause etc?

I am living under an oppressive, evil regime right now. I have a choice, I can leave but many people where I live cannot go anywhere. I'm not in the Gulf states. I am in Asia where most of the humans on the planet are controlled by nine unelected decision makers. That is why I find the pathetic drama on this thread so ridiculous. People where I live think they are superior to everyone else on the planet, they are racist and sexist. They don't care about the environment or history only their future and they have infiltrated Africa and are raping it and its people of precious resources. If you want to get wound up about something, think on that. And think about the fact that TM has prevented them from getting an important foothold in Britain. If you think the far left is the answer come over here and experience it. You won't like it, but it's ok because you're only visiting and you can go back to Britain where you are so oppressed and the government is so awful.

Maud and Nakatomi
Google it - there's plenty about it.
As regarding the Guardian allowing their writers to support Stalin, would you be happy with a newspaper allowing a journalist to write a piece denying the holocaust on the grounds it was the journalist's view, not the paper's?

I think people are completely missing the point. Legit employers already have lists of staff including all their vital info and these will be used simply for control stats. I think the real targets are single-ethnicity companies and companies employing illegal immigrants.

This is not how it was reported. The headlines in the Times were "Firms must list foreign workers" and "Plan to shame companies that turn down British staff".

Note the Times is a right-leaning paper, they probably got an exclusive from the government; this is not some alarmist reporting by a lefty paper like the Guardian.

The targets are obviously companies who legally employ foreign nationals; the government wants to portray them as greedy/unpatriotic for employing foreigners rather than training British people.

It's pretty clear that the Tories have decided to respond to the referendum result by going full-on UKIP with their immigration policy; they overdid the xenophobia on this one and now they're backpedaling and saying it was just a suggestion for a "nudge" policy, or for gathering stats (these two explanations contradict each other, of course).

there is nothing unelectable about that man

Dear Lord what will it take to make Corbyn supporters look up from their bellies and face the reality.

I honestly think now that there's a lot of mischief making amongst these 'new' labour members. They must be tories in disguise as no one but no one can possibly think he could win an election.

Nakatomi it's possible our grandads were in the same unit, then. I know my grandad was there for the liberation and clean up. I'm not sure he was ever a political person - but I suspect his generation, if they were still here, would also be seeing chilling echoes, now.

Of course it isn't the precise same set of circs - reparations etc - but there is a groundswell of feeling that people like Farage managed to harness.

And the rise in hate crime since the whole thing; immigrants being scapegoats, etc etc - well, it's ringing bells for me. What the tories were doing to the disabled only a few months ago made me think that we were only a heartbeat away from the Final Solution, that's for sure. (And May has yet to reverse a lot of the really repellent stuff like sanctioning the unemployed, the change from DLA to PIP for the disabled, the criteria for receiving PIP, etc). I think that we are almost not allowed to make a comparison because debate does seem to have to be shut down, when parallels are drawn. All the more reason to make them.

I do think the 'quiet revolution' thing is spin. She is lying. She didn't believe in Brexit and she hasn't had time to tour the country and find out people's real opinions, neither have her spin doctors. The only naive and gullible people are those who are buying the quiet revolution spin.

Wearedoomed17

No, not a prepper, though these past few months have made me seriously consider upping sticks and moving somewhere else. My DP is in the Navy and is seriously considering retiring in 2 years when he's done his 20 years. He loves that job but he's dismayed at what is happening.

I don't think there is a problem with Labour. I think they're very electable.

I did google it, Dapplegrey, but didn't find anything concrete beyond unsourced libertarian websites.

Can you link, if you have anything better?

JoffreyBaratheon

Yes, very possible! He was deeply affected by what he saw there. He wasn't majorly political, but his beliefs were very deeply rooted in socialism.

I agree with you about the feeling that Farage and the right have been able to harness. They've been very savvy, blaming everything on immigrants just as the Nazis blamed everything on the Treaty of Versailles and then the Jews.

Like you said, Theresa May is just spinning. She was an opponent of brexit but now she supports it because she sees this as her key to keeping power.

Nakatomi Seriously where would you go that is better than the UK?

I don't think there is a problem with Labour. I think they're very electable.

Well tbh that then makes you the 'head in sand person' you are accusing others of being.

And therein lies the proof: that May et al (including those bastions of free speech and political free thinking, Dacre, Desmond and Murdoch ) have succeeded in changing the perception of "Centre" so far to the right that a Labour Party led by Corbyn is seen as unelectably far left wing .

Don't get me wrong - I don't like Corbyn (but that is more to do with his leadership capabilities) and will never vote UK Labour again but I hate the way that perceptions are being manipulated.

At least I have the option to vote for an electable left wing party to control at least some areas of governance, including important areas like education and the NHS.

However, we are still at the mercy of this right wing government who has a single MP in my country but who have the power to drag us down the plug hole with them.

It is Corbyn's 'friends', his inability to lead and deal with issues such as anti-Semitism that is more of an issue tbh than the 'left wing' arguement.