To be fed up of comparisons with 1930s Germany in U.K. politics?

[jessica29054]

Surely a better and far less potentially offensive comparison is the 1980s?

Labour in disarray, therefore weak opposition, and a female PM of course.

Comparisons with the rise of the extreme far right in Germany have little place. The BNP are the equivalent to Hitler and his party and thankfully have little mainstream support.

I've not RTFT but there is a passage in the book "The Past is Myself" by Christabel Bielenberg (British lady married to a German lawyer during WW2). Her husband-to-be says of Hitler "you might think the Germans are political idiots Chris but they won't fall for that clown".

Well we know how it turned out.

The OP might want to reflect on that.

Britain is not like 1930s Germany though, as our economy is not in melt down. Although it is not doing well. If a European country goes into total economic meltdown, then that would set the stage for the rise of a Hitler type figure.

We should incidentally also remember that the Daily Mail supported the Blackshirts.
Indeed .
And the Guardian supported that mass murdering dictator Stalin.

The EU isn't so far stopping the rise of the far right in some of its member countries.
Do you think there is anything it can do to stop it?

Yanbu. It's lazy and gets used to shut down proper debate and discussion, especially on here.

The 80s comparison has some currency though (I wish Labour would stop squabbling over Israel and their bloody act together).

Godwin's law definitely applies.

Dapplegrey - they are not stopping it because that would mean an admittance that they were wrong/had made an error of judgement, they are playing ostriches and burying their head in the sand and if they are not careful it will go past the point where it can be stamped out. I think at this moment in time the grass is not greener on the other side.

I am always surprised by how many on MN abhor the Daily Mail (etc) yet know exactly what it says. The media is not to be trusted, it exists to stir up reaction and make money. Much of the overreaction and hysteria on these threads is due to over attention to the media imo

I am always surprised by how many on MN abhor the Daily Mail (etc) yet know exactly what it says.

It's simple good sense to see how news is being reported outside your own preferred medium, otherwise you end up living in an echo chamber - which is equally derided on MN.

In case you were wondering just how dangerous Theresa May is, she's just been congratulated on her policies by Marine Le Pen, France's leading fascist.

Extremism (including fascism of course) gains speed when top-down re-organisation of countries is attempted.
Look at the countries that the USA and its allies have decided they know what's best for.
This is my opinion and it is why I think that Trump (despite his hatefulness and absurdity) probably poses a lesser danger to the world than Clinton.
And why Brexit should at least deprive any potential EU army of the UK's mililtary. What will a powerful EU government do with a powerful EU army? I don't really want to be part of that. I don't want to be part of a system that thinks it knows what is best for the everyone and instigates top-down policies.
(Disclaimer before I run for cover - I am pro-immigration, pro asylum and I have been a member of the Labour party since 1982. And I don't think Corbyn is any great fan of the EU either).

Why is everything "offensive" when it's compared to things which happened between 1922 and 1945 in Europe? That time is passing out of living memory and into history, and having a historical perspective is very useful. I think some things are very comparable, such as the drip drip of insidious racism in mainstream press, and the fact that racist thugs now believe they are acting and speaking for others, whereas before they would have kept quiet.

Meri, that's an interesting and positive contribution to make to the discussion. Made me pause and think, thank you.

I find it extraordinary, we have a genocide going on in Iraq/Syria/Libya against Christians and Yadizis we have mass desecration of historical sites, the burning of books, beheading, slaughter - brutality but Yeah.....mass displacement of peoples...

I don't look at Parliament and think this is the 1930's no.

I look to ISIS and think these are the modern day Nazis, they are the extreme right wing, they are the people we need to crush and stamp out! Including Assad and Putin.

Of course, the most troubling thing in Theresa May's speech was her belief that she thinks soldiers should be above the law. Yeah, let's let them go round murdering innocent people and doing what they want to do, that's a good idea!

And the Guardian supported that mass murdering dictator Stalin

Thank you Dapple, I am so sick of hearing about the mail supporting black shirts and yet nothing of the support of the henious killer Stalin!

If you look back at the history of that time, eg the Mitfords you will see some family members supporting Hitler and the socialists and some supporting Communism. And it was this way all over politics. This was BEFORE the rampage that Hitler went on!

There is one group of people marching in boots with black flags committing genocide and killing and it aint TM and the Tories

I don't read the Mail.I suppose if you do, then you are more likely to see propaganda you don't like.I mean, seriously the Mail is pretty famous for it, isn't it? So don't read it

So, OP, first it doesn't exist and everyone is making it up, and then it does exist but its in places you don't read, so it doesn't matter?

Take off your blinkers and look around, before you tell everyone else how things are.

hmm I wonder what could possibly trigger us to suddenly enter a massive recession/depression??

Main stream EU does not have the same grip on Far Right Thugs as we do in the UK.

I think its all looking very worrying over there at the moment. Very worrying and all Juncker did to calm fears was off the youth a free rail pass.

I am so glad to be out of it.

HumidSeptember

Theresa May has literally just started a wave of Nationalism, is using a subset of society as a scapegoat and has just declared that 48% of voters are part of the "liberal elite". She's also very keen on dismantling our human rights.

Sounds an awful lot like this to me...

I always thought it would never happen again, but the fact that people like you can't see what's happening in front of your eyes just goes to show how easy it is to hoodwink the popualtion.

Hiro are you in a country that aligned itself with Nazi Germany a while back? Whatever that country is, it's not one I'd like to live in. I wonder if those who agree with Rudd's latest speech would like the UK to emulate it though? And if not, why not?

As for the comparison with the 30s being used to shut down debate, I think that threads such as this one & shouts of 'Godwin's law!' are the attempts to shut down debate. It won't work though OP. Because no holocaust is likely to follow, it means no comparisons can be made about the political and social circumstances and attitudes in 30s Germany & the UK now? It doesn't make sense. People are saying they don't want to go down that road at all, of making foreigners feel like 2nd class citizens. There's also no need for it, so why start?

I note, if we're being literal, that the vilest mainstream anti-semitism is currently coming from the Left

And the Guardian supported that mass murdering dictator Stalin

Can anyone provide any evidence for this statement? I'd be interested to follow it up.

From what I've read, the Manchester Guardian broke the story of Stalin's horrific faminogenic collectivisation policies in the 1930s, and also regularly published Trotsky's denunciations of Stalin's 'counter-terrorist' purges (rich out of him, I know).

If you say so peppersaunt

Point is, the left aren't in power.

I can't be offended by people drawing that parallel, ever. If there is one piece of history we need to keep learning from - it's 1930s' European history. If people see parallels, they see parallels.

My grandad was one of the first lot of British soldiers in to liberate Belsen at the end of the War. He was a tough old fucker - sargeant in two World Wars so had pretty well seen it all by that time. He never spoke to anyone, ever about what he saw in Belsen. A few years ago I read a letter written by a soldier in the same regiment who didn't hold back on describing what he saw. That generation who bore witness are gone now so it is up to us to be vigilant.

There is no mandate for Brexit (the Brexiters were openly saying, hours before results were announced that if the result was about what it turned out to be but going against them, they'd bleat for another referendum). Brexit happened not due to 'weak opposition' but due to Cameron making a daft promise at an election, he thought he could never win anyway.

I've been to one of Corbyn's street hustings. The press could only have conveyed hw many people were crammed into that space if they'd had a helicopter flying overhead. Trust me, there is nothing unelectable about that man.

There is little parallel with the 80s and I was someone within the Labour party at that time.

May is not another Thatcher, and it's kind of sexist to even say that. I'd credit her with a bit more intelligence and - strange quality for a tory - humanity. Corbyn is not another Michael Foot. And Brexit will tear apart Britain let alone Europe, given that the Scots really have to be independent to be able to leave now - so we're in a very different environment to 1985. Although it does bear some resemblence to Orwell's 1984....

MaudGoneMad

You're correct. Editorially, they never supported Stalin. Some writers might have done, but the Guardian has always had the stance that writers can disagree with each other, they still do.

The Guardian (Manchester Guardian then) was the only paper reporting on Stalin's policies and regularly published Leon Trotsky's writing. They were also the first newspaper (along with The Telegraph) to break the story about the Nazis gassing the Jews. Unfortunately, their reporting was ignored.

And as for "offensive" you have no right to tell me what is offensive, OP.

My mum's family were Irish catholics and my granddad fought in World War 2. He was there when Bergen-Belsen was liberated and never talked about his experiences. Never attended Poppy Day, never had anything to do with reunions or anything like that, he was that affected by what he saw there. He was a lifelong socialist and would have never voted for a right wing party.

My dad's family were Hungarian jews and fled Hungary in the 1930s. They settled here and loved their adopted home, but never forgot who they were. My granddad was a miner, and my grandmother was a landgirl during the Second World War. Again, neither of them would have ever voted for what we have in power now. They had seen it happen before.

None of them are here now, sadly. That's why some of us have to stand up, because we need to show we learnt from what our ancestors told us. If your family has never experienced what it's like to live under a regime like we're describing, you will not see the warning signs. Mine has. I won't let it happen again.