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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To be fed up of comparisons with 1930s Germany in U.K. politics?

873 replies

jessica29054 · 05/10/2016 19:48

Surely a better and far less potentially offensive comparison is the 1980s?

Labour in disarray, therefore weak opposition, and a female PM of course.

Comparisons with the rise of the extreme far right in Germany have little place. The BNP are the equivalent to Hitler and his party and thankfully have little mainstream support.

OP posts:
GreenandWhite · 08/10/2016 11:19

HI Brexiters on this thread I'm sure you are not too squeamish to read a daily fail article

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3828042/All-3-5million-EU-migrants-living-Britain-allowed-stay-Home-Office-finds-five-six-legally-deported.html

Please read the comments bellow the 'article' and tell me Brexit wasn't about xenophobia ignorance envy and hate Smile ta ever so.

Fawful · 08/10/2016 11:23

Re: race incidents reporting, there was indeed a spike in reporting and I looked for assertions by the police that it was only an increase in reporting and that actual incidents didn't go up, and I didn't find any. The Daily Mail wrote that some incidents being reported were 2nd hand reports and that they were unverifiable anyway, and they spun it to say the spike in reports was unreliable and therefore the incidents most likely not there, but that's the Mail's opinion, and might or might not be true. The Police website still mentions the spike of reports and how it has gone down and talks about the issue of under reporting. It doesn't say 'actually the spike probably relates to nothing' , which it might if it really did.

Making firms publish their %age of foreign workers is currently illegal, as is trying to recruit British workers above (EU) foreigners. What worries foreigners is not Remainers asking them 'poor thing, have you made plans to flee?', it's the depiction of us foreigners as 'citizens of the world' with no loyalty (see the 1940s antisemitic slur of 'rootless cosmopolitans'... 'Cosmopolitan' meaning 'citizen of the world' in Greek) lowering wages and needing to be exposed as taking jobs. Noise is being made that says 'let's shine a light and see how many foreigners there really are, lurking in jobs they have been welcome to have but we now think they shouldn't have'.
Then firms become reluctant to hire staff with foreign accents, whether naturalised British citizens or not, as it makes them look unpatriotic. I don't know what it is you don't understand, it's obvious discrimination would happen, and it is what people want, British jobs for British people.
But I'm opened-minded, so if you want to tell me you are committed to equality and that in a post-'British job for British people' world, I won't be discriminated against for my accent, that will be great (even though I still think it's a crap direction a lot of countries seem to be taking, and I still think the real driving forces are, at heart, fear and bigotry).

TheElementsSong · 08/10/2016 11:33

rootless cosmopolitans

YY Fawful I was offered some kind sympathies on another thread regarding my unfortunate "rootlessness", as though it was a distasteful venereal disease which they hoped I could be cured of. Although I think they subsequently decided I was irretrievably tainted when I revealed myself to be an immigrant (they immediately assumed that I couldn't be British Grin).

BillSykesDog · 08/10/2016 11:40

Green that logic only works if you are thick enough to believe that 52% of referendum voters and there reasons for voting are entirely represented by commenters on the DM.

But then this just goes back to self selecting of information just because the message it sends proves your point. In reality the Daily Mail commenters represent a tiny minority which is widely acknowledged to be at the extreme end of the spectrum. To be quite honest selecting a thousand comments that are known to be people coming at it from the most extreme angle and claiming that's an accurate representation of 17 million people makes you look a bit dumb and rather on the level of reasoning of the DM commenters that you're sneering at.

GreenandWhite · 08/10/2016 11:43

"In reality the Daily Mail commenters represent a tiny minority which is widely acknowledged to be at the extreme end of the spectrum"

I sincerely hope you are right. Either way The DM, Sun, Express etc. are leading news sources and shape the opinions of millions of gullible and unpleasant people

TheElementsSong · 08/10/2016 11:44

Wait, is it ok to call people thick and dumb now? I can't keep up with these developments!

time4chocolate · 08/10/2016 11:44

Greenandwhite - not a daily mail reader here but I gave you the courtesy of reading and I couldn't see where it said 16m comments, did I miss that?.

Interestingly, your link led me onto another article in there which you haven't mentioned.

Fawful · 08/10/2016 11:44

So Bill you want us 3.2 m EU citizens to stay and be able to name and shame our employers in the future?

TheForeignOffice · 08/10/2016 11:50

TheElementsSong : Wait, is it ok to call people thick and dumb now? I can't keep up with these developments!

Apparently so. But you can only insult "liberal intellectuals". Welcome to Dumb Down Britain.

Fawful · 08/10/2016 11:51

And I'm not supposed to talk about feeling like a 2nd class citizen, is that right, because it's offending your idea of yourself as a tolerant nation?

GreenandWhite · 08/10/2016 11:53

"16m comments, did I miss that" not sure I am following..

time4chocolate · 08/10/2016 11:59

Greenandwhite - billsykesdog post 11.40 first paragraph is what I was getting at.

GreenandWhite · 08/10/2016 12:01

ok thank you Smile

This link was posted by mist on another thread
paulbernal.wordpress.com/2016/10/08/brexit-and-consequences/
It's worth a read:
I’m not, as I’ve also been accused, ‘lumping all Brexit voters together’, suggesting that they’re all racists and xenophobes. Of course they’re not. They have all, however, helped the racists and xenophobes.

GreenandWhite · 08/10/2016 12:04

The point I am trying to make is that the headline "All 3.5million EU migrants living in Britain 'will be allowed to stay after the Home Office finds five in six cannot legally be deported' insinuates that readers of the DM (and sun, express etc bla) are hoping for EU citizens living in this country to be deported. Nice bunch of people eh? Why might they want that? xenophobia

prettybird · 08/10/2016 12:11

Greenandwhite: I couldn't bring myself to read the comments The Daily Mail article talks about them dropping the threat of deporting people as 80% will be eligible for ILR.

That's not actually that reassuring, as ILR costs £1875 (now, God knows how much they might choose to put it up to to keep undesirables out ). So only the relatively wealthy will be able to afford it

But maybe that's exactly what they intend Hmm

An EU citizen could still be making a positive contribution (paying taxes, working for the NHS) and not have been able to save up in excess of £1800.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 08/10/2016 12:25

They have all, however, helped the racists and xenophobes

So you are saying that everyone that voted leave is responsible for the behaviour of others that did so to?

time4chocolate · 08/10/2016 12:28

But maybe that's exactly what they intend oh for goodness sake Confused

GreenandWhite · 08/10/2016 12:31

Piglet I reiterate "They have all, however, helped the racists and xenophobes". Make of this what you will. Either you will feel comfortable with the developments or not.

Pretty the comments are ugly. Of course the article is presented in a way to stir hatred. I don't blame you for not reading them, not good for the soul.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 08/10/2016 12:39

They have all, however, helped the racists and xenophobes". Make of this what you will. Either you will feel comfortable with the developments or not.

So who was helping the racists and xenophobes when we have had racist attacks made on us then press Brexit? When we were spat at?

People are responsible for their own behaviour.

BillSykesDog · 08/10/2016 12:56

race incidents reporting, there was indeed a spike in reporting and I looked for assertions by the police that it was only an increase in reporting and that actual incidents didn't go up

Leaving aside the fact that these are open cases which the police couldn't simply publicly dismiss how about this:

news.npcc.police.uk/releases/hate-crime-is-unacceptable-in-any-circumstances-say-police

“Police forces are working closely with their communities to maintain unity and tolerance and prevent any hate crime or abuse following the EU referendum. At the national level, the vast majority of people are continuing to go about their lives in safety and security and there have been no major spikes in tensions reported.

“However, we are seeing an increase in reports of hate crime incidents to True Vision, the police online hate crime reporting site. This is similar to the trends following other major national or international events. In previous instances, crime levels returned to normal relatively quickly but we are monitoring the situation closely.

The Daily Mail wrote that some incidents being reported were 2nd hand reports and that they were unverifiable anyway, and they spun it to say the spike in reports was unreliable and therefore the incidents most likely not there

Actually it came from the Chief Constable of Essex Police.

m.echo-news.co.uk/news/14604671.Recorded_hate_crime__down_on_last_year__as_Essex_Police_say_complaint_against_Nigel_Farage_counts_as_one/

“Some members of the public complaining about Nigel Farage, or whatever, that will get recorded as a hate crime no matter what it is. If the person feels it’s a hate crime it will get recorded as a hate crime”, he said.

They later clarified that they had only had one complaint about Nigel Farage, but the general gist of his comment was that the spike was somewhat influenced by frivolous complaints.

So Bill you want us 3.2 m EU citizens to stay and be able to name and shame our employers in the future?

Yes. I would like the EU citizens here to be allowed to stay. I assume that's a pretty common feeling. I think you'd have to be very extreme to want to see people uprooted from their jobs and homes and families just because we've decided to have a reorganisation of the way our countries politics work. I would also be very surprised if they weren't allowed to and I totally expect they will. I think this trope that lots of people are clamouring for them to leave is a myth.

And no, I'm not really in favour of publishing those figures. I think it's an expensive waste of time and won't achieve anything. I would prefer to see the underlying issues that stop British people taking these jobs addressed instead. Which I think are low wages, poor working conditions, insecure contracts and lack of flexibility/accommodation for things like staff with issues like childcare etc. A lot of these jobs have zero security, you don't know if you will be paid from one week to the next and you're expected to work anti social hours at short notice for very low wages. These are jobs that young migrants without dependent and with a fairly transient lifestyle can take but British people who with dependents and a more settled life can't. I think there's a problem there which needs to be addressed.

But equally a university or hospital or pharma co or engineering co might have a similar level of foreign workers because they need people with specific high level skills which can't be found and are so specialised it's not just a matter of training people up. Those figures would be too simplistic and wouldn't really differentiate between the two. I don't think it would serve any useful purpose.

birdsdestiny · 08/10/2016 13:09

Those factors such as temporary contracts need to be addressed but that is not why large sections of the poorest in British society do not go for these jobs. It is naive to think so.

LordRothermereBlackshirtCunt · 08/10/2016 13:13

In reality the Daily Mail commenters represent a tiny minority which is widely acknowledged to be at the extreme end of the spectrum.
Er, isn't this the most popular, widely-read newspaper in the U.K.?

BillSykesDog · 08/10/2016 13:16

Wait, is it ok to call people thick and dumb now? I can't keep up with these developments

Considering the abuse dished out going the other way on this thread I think those comments were rather mild.

GhostofFrankGrimes · 08/10/2016 13:18

May's speech at conference consolidated the gutter press vote. Under FPTP that is all you need to win an election.

almondpudding · 08/10/2016 13:25

Do people believe that Internet comment writers are representative of a newspaper's readership?

The Guardian's online comments are full of misogyny and xenophobia, but I don't assume that is reflective of the Guardian's readership.

I also don't assume that most readers of a newspaper ever read the online comments.

I know many vote and remain voters. One of my parents voted leave and one voted remain. The same with my siblings. They're not vastly different and polarised.