To be fed up of comparisons with 1930s Germany in U.K. politics?

[jessica29054]

Surely a better and far less potentially offensive comparison is the 1980s?

Labour in disarray, therefore weak opposition, and a female PM of course.

Comparisons with the rise of the extreme far right in Germany have little place. The BNP are the equivalent to Hitler and his party and thankfully have little mainstream support.

Precisely ghost precisely.

Those factors such as temporary contracts need to be addressed but that is not why large sections of the poorest in British society do not go for these jobs. It is naive to think so.

Well perhaps. If you are going to go down the road beloved of those who like to see themselves as predjudice free paragons but for some reason think that casting poor Britons as work shy lazy scroungers who want to fester on the dole who should take a leaf out of the book of the virtuous industrious migrant who will work in terrible conditions for peanuts. Zero hours contracts and poor conditions are widespread, not a niche thing. And there are lots of reasons why settled people can't take those jobs whilst young transient migrants can. Not least because in a week without work it's an awful lot easier for a young migrant worker to survive by picking up a back pack and sofa surfing than it would be for a British mother to continue paying her rent, childcare, bills and putting food for a family on the table with no income.

Honestly, I despair that this is what the left wing has become. Applauding people for working for shit wages in terrible conditions and living in crap conditions too, but censuring those who won't or can't do it and won't fling their families into uncertainty and abandon the little security they get on benefits.

"Zero hours contracts and poor conditions are widespread, not a niche thing." Can't blame the EU on this, in fact they are about to introduce tougher measures on business to rerate their workers fairly.

"And there are lots of reasons why settled people can't take those jobs whilst young transient migrants can." Young Brits can be just as mobile.

"Not least because in a week without work it's an awful lot easier for a young migrant worker to survive by picking up a back pack and sofa surfing" Just a a British born young person can.

"than it would be for a British mother to continue paying her rent, childcare, bills and putting food for a family on the table with no income." Now this would be trickier for a British or a non-British mother wherever they are.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Young single people (migrants) and a mother who is trying to feed her children. Once we will hit that economic mess the "poor" British mother will have an even more difficult time to put food on the table.

Bill you are trying hard to sound ever so measured, reasonable, rational even, yet the underlying xenophobic sentiments are rather easy to spot in your posts.

'The vast majority of people are continuing to go about their lives in safety and security and there have been no major spikes in tensions reported but we are monitoring an increase in reports to our online reporting website'

Bill You missed off the bit at the end of his sentence. It was also written on June 27th.

The policeman from Essex is only talking about Essex, not nationally. You'll look in vain for the national equivalent.

From the police website, the latest on hate crime is:

Following increases in the reporting of hate crime and raised community tensions, the National Police Chiefs’ Council requested weekly returns from forces across England, Wales, and Northern Ireland.
At its peak, these returns showed a 58 per cent increase in the reporting of hate crime in comparison to 2015. This has since subsided and we have now observed four consecutive weeks of reductions in reporting. The latest returns from August 5 – 18 2016 show 2778 hate crimes and incidents. This is a decrease of 479 offences on the previous fortnight but it is a 14 per cent increase on the equivalent period in 2015.
National Police Chiefs’ Council Lead for Hate Crime, Assistant Chief Constable Mark Hamilton said:
“We have seen continued decreases in reports of hate crimes to forces and these reports have now returned to formerly seen levels for 2016. For this reason, we will return to our previous reporting procedures and will no longer be requiring weekly updates from forces.
“This doesn’t mean that hate crime is no longer a priority. We know that divisions still exist in our society and that tensions could rise again. Police forces will continue with their robust response and we will react swiftly to any future signs of tension.
“I am aware that hate crime is still an under-reported crime but we believe that greater awareness and confidence in the police response has contributed to increases in reporting in comparison to last year.
“Nobody should suffer in silence and would urge victims and those feeling vulnerable to come forward. The police service has no tolerance for this type of abuse and need to be made aware that these crimes are taking place so that we can investigate.”
Victims and those feeling vulnerable should report any incident of hate crime to the police on 101 or using our True Vision website (www.report-it.org.uk). In an emergency, always dial 999.

Er, Fawful, I quoted it verbatim including the following paragraph which read:

“However, we are seeing an increase in reports of hate crime incidents to True Vision, the police online hate crime reporting site. This is similar to the trends following other major national or international events. In previous instances, crime levels returned to normal relatively quickly but we are monitoring the situation closely

You, however have misquoted it and accused me of leaving part out which was never there in the first place.

Yes, I know it came just from Essex police (I even said in the OP where it came from). But it is a reliable source and concerns the same reporting method so it's pretty reasonable to assume that the same would apply to other regions of the country given that they have the same reporting procedure.

But that statement from the police is pretty unequivocal. No spikes in tension. No major problems.

Yet people on this thread claim that we are in a situation akin to Kritallnacht. Well someone is not really giving a realistic picture. And who am I going to believe? The police? Or a few hysterical posters who see brown shirts everywhere because the interwebz told them it was so?

Fawful, I will repeat again. Under reporting has no effect on a spike. Because a spike would happen anyway as under reporting would remain a pretty static % (or arguably even fall after Brexit). Under reporting is absolutely irrelevant to the question of a spike.

Yes but that was on the 27th June, and it said no spike in tensions but an increase in reporting that they were investigating. And in September their analysis is 'increase in reporting and raised tensions' since the referendum, now easing off, but still higher than last year. So it probably wasn't as imaginary as that Essex person made out in the Echo one day, especially if the Police warns of under-reporting rather than over-reporting.

Why would it be irrelevant? The more happens and is reported, the more happens and is being unreported. If 10% always goes unreported, that has to go up when the number of crimes go up hasn't it?

Bill I don't get it. Is it so difficult to imagine that the nationalism promoted by Brexit, the government and many posts here including yours leads to anti-Eu citizen / foreigner sentiment? I doesn't take a lot of imagination to see the assotiation between these

I don't believe that anyone (except maybe some brainless teen boys) are telling EU people to leave. But what I do believe is that the Remoaners are spreading fear and anxiety among some EUs.

In my street I have Latvian, Lithuanian and Polish. As I speak some Russian I am able to have good enough conversations, especially with the Latvians. Not one of them has been threatened, nor has anyone said to them that their time in this country is coming to an end. The chattering occurs mostly within the OB and RL; you are winding yourselves up for no reason.

The totalitarianism on this thread reminds me very much of the pre-Brexit thread. You shout fascist like good Lefties, but it is the "left" that is responsible for the biggest atrocities in the last 100 years (Stalin, Mao, Viet Cong, Khmer Rouge). Left wingers can also be fascistic, because totalitarianism applies to both ideologies.

But the left have also been responsible for far more of the good that has gone on in the last 50 years.

I'm also not sure if the left wing body count is that much larger than Hitler, the Apartheid regimes and any number of African and South American dictatorship.

Also I don't think that comparisons between the current government and their actions and 1930s Germany are dissimilar. Its right to call it out when you see it.

The totalitarianism on this thread reminds me very much of the pre-Brexit thread.

(1) How is this thread totalitarian? Is this a new definition of which I was hitherto unaware?
(2) Is totalitarianism the sole preserve of the far left and not the far right?
(3) Where then do you stand on the demonisation of "educated metropolitan liberal elite" as "rootless citizens of nowhere"? Is it ok because it's "left-wing"?

Smirnoffka so do your neighbours never walk past any newsagents either, where several tabloids frontpages keep screaming xenophobic shit?
I don't need to be told by a teenager to go hpme to have developed a feeling of unwelcome, and any other immigrant I know personally tends to feel the same.

But the left have also been responsible for far more of the good that has gone on in the last 50 years.
Smallfox yes well I'm sure the millions of victims of Stalin, Pol Pot, Mugabe etc would be greatly consoled to hear that.

AS would the millions whose lives have been improved by the NHS, the welfare state.

But then that argument that the left have killed more than the right is ridiculous really, but then I don't think you're capable of putting together a credible argument.

Stalin, Pol Pot

Ah yes, weren't they those chaps who didn't like intellectuals and experts or anyone who didn't glowingly agree with them? Remind you of anyone?

(IIRC for example Lysenko was a crackpot fake biologist whose ideas were favoured by the Soviet authorities, with the result that actual biologists who attempted to do actual science ended up in Siberia.)

"Remoaners"... how mature.

Also technically Stalin's regime wasn't left wing, merely it paid it lip service, it was actually state capitalist.

If we're being specific.

"Free healthcare at the point of use comes from the core principles at the founding of the National Health Service by the Labour government in 1948"

Oh so are we playing "Which dictator is worst?" Does it matter? Just because there have been terrible dictators it doesn't mean Theresa May is a nice kind leader. Also arguing about left/right wing completely fails to understand that the more extreme you get, the further towards one another they get. It's not a line - it's a circle

Which dictator is worst?

It's the old race to the bottom thing isn't it? We can't ever say anything isn't going swimmingly as long as there is something, somewhere in all of time and space that could conceivably be worse .

It's like the old "Eat your vomitous liver and overooked sprouts, didn't you know there are starving people in Ethiopia, you selfish child?" you used to get as a kid.

I think that most people would accept that totalitarianism of any stripe is a bad thing. However in terms of calling for something which would genuinely move us in that direction - like disenfranchising large numbers of voters because they've failed to vote in the right way - well I only remember that coming from one direction in recent times and that's from the left.

The disenfranchised will not get less disenfranchised once we have exited the EU, on the contrary.