It pains me to say so but I'm starting to think that we might actually make a success of Brexit

[WordYaGoBernadette]

AIBU?

Yes I know there is a topic for this but it's hidden away and mainly populated by Remain supporters and I'm interested in the views of everyone!

I still want to remain but, as the Labour Party has been woeful since the result thus providing no opposition, I'm starting to think it's inevitable.

So ... we're a very rich country. BMW and Audi (for example) aren't going to stand for Merkel and her chums slapping prohibitive tariffs on exporting their cars to GB. Likewise other European exporters.

So who thinks it's going to happen and GB will flourish outside the EU?

I just struggle to see - given our natural geography why we will suddenly stop seeing ourselves as European? My family have always worked and lived and moved across EU way before it became what it is today!!

The younger generation probably do not a) know anything different so its scary to them to vote leave

b) perhaps have no benefit of past experience to compare experiences too.

c) do not fully understand all the implications re Brussels and Junker and the loss of political power.

Which is why it was critical we got out when we did.

But Humid, almost every country in Europe is in the EU ot at least part of the EEA or has very close access to it. All of these countries have freedom of movement within them. We will be outside all of these arrangements. It's just not possible to compare our relationship with the Europe of today with our relationship with Europe in the 1970s, when the then EEC was a much smaller, different institution.

But the point is - in or out - we can and have traveled and lived extensively in Europe since time began.

Culturally we will be far far poorer. Economically. Fuck knows.

But there is no certainty that this will continue now when we won't be part of EU arrangements. If they want to introduce visas or quotas applicable to UK citizens, they could, especially if this is what the UK chooses to do regarding EU citizens.

Font how will be be culturally poorer exactly?

Because so much of what makes life interesting is diversity, tolerance, the ability to travel and experience our world and engage with other cultures. Brexit and the attitudes it is cultivating in many people (of course not all) is the direct opposite of all of those things. It's shutting us off, excluding others and saying that's ok.

"Project Fear said immediate and drastic consequences which have patently not materialised"

Feast your eyes on this chart.

Culturally we will be far far poorer

How so? We are already a massively multi cultural society. What are we going to be cut off from?

It's shutting us off, excluding others and saying that's ok

I can see why some people may think this but I think the exact opposite is true. That we have been focused on the EU far too much in past decades and whilst its vital to remain close to the EU we need to look at the whole world now and not stay little Europeans. There is a great big world outside the borders of the EU.

Feast your eyes on this chart.

Which is great news for exports

"traveled and lived extensively in Europe since time began."

yes most of it in the context of invasion and war.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_England

Culturally we will be far far poorer what, no more X factor or Bake off? That's "culture" I can do without - joking aside, what the hell are you talking about?

Yes Green? In war and in peace? Your point? We have travelled in peace and lived in Europe and in times of war, since time began

"BMW and Audi (for example) aren't going to stand for Merkel and her chums slapping prohibitive tariffs on exporting their cars to GB"

These are not price sensitive products.

For the EU to be concerned about price increases, they need a competitor offering a better deal. Nobody is offering a better deal.

You're missing the point - Merkel won't want to preside over anything that chokes off demand for these German products which are extraordinarily popular here (lord knows why but that's for another thread) - because that will threaten German jobs.

And what about those of us who import?
Our company is taking a pounding at the moment with the low pound to euro exchange rate.
We stockpiled some foreign currency before the vote but we are only a small company so could only stockpile so much.

Humid being so invested in the pro Brexit argument you probably know what point I'm trying to make. Just in case you genuinely don't, the European union is firmly rooted in the idea that close economic ties between European countries and cultural exchange and partnership are the best way to prevent further wars. Remember the last two devastating WWs occurred within the last 100 years.

Humid genuine question, have you ever participated in a foreign exchange programme withe nay European country and what languages other than English have you learned? This is not a trick question I am just interested.

You'd honestly have to pretty dim to think anything good is happening right now.

I think the issue will be that Brexit will not bring what people who voted for it wanted.

These sorts of blanket patronising generalisations about Leave voters are breathtakingly arrogant. A lot of the people telling Brexiters they are all thick and it won't work seem to be no less full or bluster and certainty than the people they are ridiculing.

And what about those of us who import?
Well, you're in trouble, no-one's pretending otherwise, but EU membership hasn't been a guarantor of stable exchange rates for those of us not in the Euro.

My point was that there is an upside to the that graph.

It's shutting us off, excluding others and saying that's ok

We can't offer unlimited entry to the UK - pretty much everyone accepts that bar a few extreme left and extreme right libertarians. Given that, you have to draw the line somewhere - except the EU prevented us drawing any kind of line.

Even if you accept and value the contributions (financial and cultural) of immigrants (and many people quibble on some or all of the detail on that) - there are real effects of such massive population growth in such a small island.

It's about having some say in who we'd like, is all.

I think I explained what I was talking about further up thread wasonthelist not sure what bake off has anything to do with it, or any other TV show. If you genuinely believe that as a nation we have multiculturalism sorted then you're blinkered. If you think making people from the EU feel unwelcome as they are now makes us culturally rich then you are also blinkered. Making people feel unwelcome and stopping people from joining us and making it difficult for us to join others is cutting ourselves off. It's relatively easy for us to live and work in the EU at the moment, not so much America and Australia where you need visas. So why have we decided to put ourselves in a position where we want to make living and working in the EU difficult for us and our children? Because people can't see beyond there own noses and are scared of immigration?

We've never offered unlimited access to the UK. It's an argument I have no interest in having with you because you'll just attribute any reasoned comments by telling me I'm on the far left.

Some leave voters that I spoke to after the vote claimed they voted to prevent Islamic terrorists entering the country from countries like Afghanistan. They didn't seem to understand that we have full border control. Everyone has to show passport (or ID cards for EU nationals). If you don't hold an EU passport, you can't get in without a visa. They thought that if you were travelling via an EU country, anyone was allowed in.

Wasn't one of the main conflicts of the twentieth century Russia v. Germany? Particularly during the Second World War.

That seems to be heating up again right now. Are we more likely to get caught up in that in or out of the EU?

I have to admit that Putin worried me.