to be pissed off that the town hall will no longer let me run my club, due to us not accepting girls?

[Waterlipe]

Basically, my 2 sons wanted to join Beavers, there were no places (we have DS2 down on the waiting list, we have since birth, he's now 4, so we'll see if he gets in, but it's unlikely. DS2 is 9, so would be in Cubs, but still haven't got a place yet, has been on the lists for a few years. There are places in Brownies, etc. :( which is frustrating, as the boys would enjoy that too, but oh well, so I set up a crafts club for boys. It used to run at the village hall (it was all official, don't worry) and it was quite popular, the village school isn't great and doesn't offer many extra-curricular activities, so the club that walks the children home (can't think of the company!) often brought the children to me (obviously this was all sorted out with parents) and they did crafts! (btw there was an other after school club in the church rooms (which is just opposite, so there was places for girls to go after school if their parents needed). We had around 3 boys on the first week, but it got up to 25, which we were very happy with! It was just so nice to see them so eager to learn how to do these activities. Anyone, of course, one mum moans that she wants her son and daughter to be in the same place, to which we said that she should put her son in the after school club at the church, oh no, she preferred our activities (it was me and a couple of my friends who ran it)... She threatened to go to the police for sexism, etc.

In the end she came one day and told us how she has written to the council, etc.

We have received a letter (I'll actually attach it to this thread in the morning, I'm just too lazy to get out of bed) about how we can no longer use it unless our rules are changed, but yet this was fine when we first opened it. Maybe no one can help until I attach the letter, which is fair enough. I'll do it when I wake up

Assline girls CAN do those activities...my own DD does Parkour and surfing. I'm teaching her that she can do what she wants to do WITH the boys because she's just as capable as they are.

Boys should be taught the same thing.

I don't agree with ANY club being exclusively for boys or girls. Or men or women.

Brownies is lagging but I see why it's remained as it is...partly old fashioned views and partly, the parents of the girls who attend putting on pressure.

Violet, you're now adding to the streotype by saying how it doesn't matter if they look 'girly', erm... The point is is that these activities aren't 'girly'

Exactly, your sex is your sex. It doesn't make you a girl or boy for doing certain things.

I don't see how you can be annoyed about the OP's club but not Brownies

Water what? Be clearer in your criticism...who are "they" and where did I say "they look girly"

Assline I never said I wasn't annoyed at Brownies.

To expand...you're creating further division at a time when we badly need girls and boys to come together. We need to encourage them to work together and to respect one another's differences.

Setting up special clubs for special snowflake boys who like arts is just dim.

Let them proudly join with girls and do the things they love together. Not herd the males together as though in being one with other boys they're more manly or some twaddle...as though being with girls at ALL is putting them at risk of being laughed at due to some imagined shit about girls being less.

Either way OP. The council is right to do as they have done and you need to accept that.

So there is Brownies that only accepts girls.

Scouts accepts both sexes (I always thought it was just boys)

So it's actually bloody brilliant that the OP has opened something just for boys. And by the looks of it it was really taking off before some miserable so and so decided to have a moan about it.

YABU. You are discriminating on the base of sex without a compelling reason. And however well intentioned you are it was a bit naive to think no-one would object- it was only a matter of time before someone did something about it.

I don't think Brownies should be single sex either (tbh, I think both Guides and Scouts are a bit crypto-fascist so really I would rather neither existed at all).

I do think it's entirely likely that the person who complained is being a bit spiteful though, and in being upset about that YANBU.

If she was that worried about exclusion based on sex, she would never have sent her kid to a single sex club in the first place. It's more likely she is just miffed about not being able to get shot of both her kids at the same time!

Have a look at youth groups in the area as these tend to be organised on gender lines too.

If brownies meet in the building, or another council run building, I would start by asking the council if they are stopping them meeting to as they can't stop it one way and not the other!

I can see both sides of the argument here. I do tend to agree with the OP in that if this group had been open to both sexes from the beginning it would likely have appealed to far more girls than boys and once the vast majority were girls then many of the boys would have felt ( rightly or wrongly) that is was a girls club and may have felt less comfortable and less inclined to join.

I think all you can do is agree to open it up to both sexes but put a cap on numbers and have a waiting list. If you've got a regular group of up to 25 boys now then it isn't going to become overrun with girls overnight. One or two girls joining as places become available won't do anything to change the dynamic there and its even possible that the girls may be put off because they would prefer to be surrounded by more girls anyway.

You are discriminating on the base of sex without a compelling reason.

This is interesting, I wonder what would constitute a compelling reason? What is the compelling reason for Brownies and Guides to be female only, when Beavers and Scouts can take both sexes although traditionally it was the boys' side of the Scout and Guide movement?

I think if you opened it up to girls it's likely to become predominantly girls or only girls quite quickly. It's a shame that someone has complained.

I'm not sure what difference profit would make to the principle though?

Not all Beavers and Scouts are unisex; it is a decision made by the individual pack. My son's Beavers is boys only which he likes. He isn't sporty and is at the age where he only wants to play with boys so loves the chance to be in a boy only environment. Incidentally my tomboy daughter loves Brownies.

Lawyer here, private clubs are allowed to be single sex, and there doesn't need to be a compelling reason as a previous poster suggested. Write back to the council and push back.

There's a lot of info on this thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2686454-to-think-boys-should-be-able-to-do-brownies

YANBU, why shouldn't there be something just for boys? Plenty of things just for girls, I'm quite angry to see girls at Beavers and Cubs. You won't find boys at Brownies because "girls need a safe space away from the boys", do boys not need their own space then?

I don't understand why people are so against single sex activities. I'm not saying girls should only do x and boys should only do y. Why shouldn't there be girls only fishing clubs or boys only beauty clubs.

There's no denying there are differences between the sexes and that's not a bad thing, it doesn't make any sex less capable than the other, but just means the approach each sex takes(massively generalising to be fair) a bit different. I mean equality isn't about offering everyone the same things in the same way, but rather allowing them the chance to reach the same outcomes. If the only way to allow that is giving boys a single sex club to try out something stereotypically female then that's no bad thing. We can't fix the issues of gender stereotyping in society in one jump, these things take time, if this is where we are, though not perfect, it's where we are.

Op I think your club sounds fantastic, as a mother of a daughter and a son. I would be thrilled about having something like that locally.

One of the arguments for Brownies being a girls only space is that for some religions/ cultures girls are not permitted to socialise with boys, so they would not be allowed to come.

My dd enjoy brownies/ guides because it is a girls only space but when I was younger I would have preferred Cubs to Brownies. I can see the rationale for setting up the club and in the long run it might help with equality if it turns out boys who realise that there is no brownie or pixie or fairy who runs around at night picking up dirty clothes, loading dishwasher, making cakes, sewing fancy dress clothes for dc and wrapping presents (please teach them how to wrap).

I would try to open a dialogue with the council along these lines, pointing out that these skills need to be taught and girls have those opportunities but boys don't. Have you tried having a dialogue with the Guide leaders, they might be able to support you. Where do they meet? Can you meet at the same location on a different night?

It may though have a knock on effect on the traffic in AIBU in 20 years time.

In your position I'd firstly let the parents know you are in danger of closing and why.

Then say it will be open to girls but you will only take a maximum of 25, so you are full right now. And carry on as you are. Start a waiting list and if one leaves admit the one at the top girl or boy. See how it goes.

Either change it to allow girls but have a waiting list or draw up a constitution that states you are attempting to bring craft skills to children who traditionally would not experience them, hence priority to boys and if the crafts are typically UK/European then children from BME groups who are from backgrounds that do not have pot throwing / knitting as traditional crafts.

I think the council are right in that they should not support something that excludes a group 'just because' but I do think there is a place for children to learn in different groups, sometimes single sex.

Historical and ongoing sexism means that girls benefit from Brownies

How though?

Historic and ongoing sexism has also meant that boys still tend to shy away from sewing, baking, gym, ballet, classical singing and drama, aspiring to childcare and nursing careers etc., and dismiss them as 'girly' whereas girls being involved in boxing, football, rugby, Beavers and Scouts etc is going from strength to strength, and rightly so. But if sex segregation is what it takes to get boys feeling comfortable with doing activities traditionally monopolised by or channelled towards girls then surely that should be recognized and supported?

By refusing to allow that on the basis that it is discriminatory to exclude girls, you risk alienating the boys from giving those activities a go, which ironically leads to the strengthening of any perception that certain activities are more suited to girls, that her than having the opposite effect.

Rather than having the opposite effect