To think a 10 year old girl shouldn't be encouraged to see herself as "nonbinary"

[MrsJamin]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37383914

How is this story so lauded by the right-on BBC? It's so very irresponsible of the parents to persuade a girl that she doesn't need to be a girl. Girls should be told that they are girls, and that doesn't prevent them from liking or doing anything that people say boys should only do. How does she even know what hormone blockers are? She could mess up her health forever by taking hormones in her adolescence. :(

(and yes, another trans thread - I don't care, this is SCARY SHIT right here when girls don't want to be girls)

Who makes comments to their 10 year old about whether they'll be straight or gay or that they're attracted to men/women? .

my sister acted like a boy until she was about 18. My parents never commented on it or made a big deal of it..she grew out of it. I had another friend who used to dress like a boy until she went to university. Last time I saw she was happily married and had children and mentioned how she'd got over the "boy" stage".

This kind of shit is so dangerous. The parents are irresponsible...fucking hell. Why make a label for everything? Why can't kids just "be"?

I believe in Letting children:
Dress how they like
Play with whatever they like
Have whatever interests they like
And encouraging and accepting their choices regardless of if they fit the gender stereotype.

I don't believe in:
Putting labels on children like cis, Trans, binary etc
Any kind of hormone treatment for under 18's.

When I was younger I wanted to be a boy desperately. I always wanted to be a boy from being young because they had the cool fun things I loved and got to wear pants. I was friends with boys and wanted to be
Like them. When I found out about periods and puberty at about 10 then I REALLY wanted to be a boy. Who wants to go through all the shit us women do?

I was probably about 16 or so before I actually settled into myself, accepted myself as a woman and figured out that I can still wear pants and like "boy things" without being a boy.

I think this isn't an uncommon thing and so many people do accept their birth gender after puberty. I think the potential is here to ruin kids lives letting them make choices that could damage their futures. I can see massive issues 10 years down the line when minds are changed as children grow. For instance f-m Trans who can't conceive and desperately want to carry a baby.

We are setting ourselves up as a generation who fail our kids in the name of "being tolerant and non judgemental" we seem to have lost sight of reality.

Puberty is fucking hard. Support and love your kids, talk to them, let them get frustrated, let them grow, let them discover who they want to be in their own way and their own time. Don't put a label on them and pump them full of drugs that could fuck them up for life.

Unicorn - it does sound like you are handling this well and encouraging your DD not to take any drastic steps that are hard / impossible to take back. I hope she can start to accept that her body may not be as she would prefer but that it shouldn't limit her.

Winchester - that is something I have thought about. I do think that they empowered the notion when it was first raised.

My DD absolutely feels that they were meant to be a boy - they are totally uncomfortable in their own body (more than just big boobs, periods etc). They are not butch or macho, have always been sensitive and artistic (not sure why I put that, maybe boasting!).

However, I have always thought that this path could go in many different directions, and I never say that my DD is going to change anything about themselves unless it is actually going to happen. I really hope that they change their minds.... my fingers have been crossed for a long time now.

Whatever happens, I will love and support my DD, ultimately they are my child, no matter what form they come in.

At 10? This is crazy!!

Unicorn you have done research on puberty blockers - why not ask the consultants for the basis of this information? It is fundamental to what your DD is going through. Thinking this is based on chemicals or hormones will make it more difficult for your DD to come to a realisation that she has a personality that doesn't fit with what society expects from someone with her body. Frankly I'm appalled the consultants have said that. Have the offered to test your DD to see if she has this imbalance?

What you describe, Unicorn, sounds very similar to a relative who has struggled all their life with body dysmorphia - they felt their body was so alien to them, that they struggled to go out, went through phases of anorexic behaviour and self harmed. It was incredibly hard for everyone involved. for you and your family.

I am afraid I still don't think that gender dysphoria is caused by a chemical or hormonal imbalance (otherwise the hormonal imbalances caused by something like PCOS would cause sufferers to all feel alien to their own sex - which is not the case).

I am depressed by the Leo thing, in an effort to 'explore gender and sexuality' we seem to be restricting what a girl can be, what a boy can be and where our sexuality takes us. It is seriously fucked up.

went to CAMHS and "came out" as wanting to be a boy
this would worry me

We are under the care of a London transgender clinic who are taking things very slowly - no pressure to do this or that - just supportive.

I wouldn't trust people whose salary depends on you believing what they believe. They believe in the transgender narrative. That means even if they are not 'pressurising' your daughter (you sure about that?) they are pushing the idea that it IS possible to be a boy in a girl's body, or a boy in a boy's body. They may not be pushing your daughter one way or the other but they are pushing the idea that it's an option.

Sorry you are going through this Unicorn. I'm sorry your daughter is so very unhappy.

Personally I would get her away from all the professionals. (Disclaimer: I speak as an absolute non-expert and non professional - just what I would do as a parent.) All their training comes from pro-trans organisations.

Are you aboard all the 'transgendertrend' websites and so on which are offering a different perspective?

I should have said 'girl in a boy's body' there

Unicorn, honestly, you don't have to go along with this.

More and more parents are realising that the so called "experts" are just wrong about this and are setting up support groups so that their kids can be supported and loved, without getting onto that juggernaut of transition.

If you contact Gender Critical Dad or [[https://stephaniedaviesarai.com/ Stephanie Davies Arai I'm pretty sure one of them will be able to point you in the direction of a group who will support you if you want to protect your daughter from irreversible surgery that she may regret in future.

And please watch this de-transitioned woman.

my mum would ask me every morning if I was a boy or a girl

I've just listened to the programme.

WTF?!

Winchester - we have looked at quite a few websites but a lot of them seem to glamourise any different type of gender. I want my DD to be able to make their own decisions, but with lots of information.

The clinic are (at the moment) listening to what my DD has to say, and have also pointed me in the direction of some support as, up to now, I have not had any at all (my DP is also very ill, so am supporting him too). I don't feel that the clinic are pushing in any direction.... my DD feels that they are being listened to now, whereas before they felt totally alone. I will keep a close eye on what is being offered/said and make any decisions I need to as to carry on or not, whenever this arises.

Thanks to all the MNs that have given some words of support - it has been a lonely ride for me too.

That could have been me as a child. I hated being a girl. I hated pink, dolls, dresses, long hair. I even chose a boy name that I'd tell people if they asked. I hated that I started puberty early and had breasts and my period at primary school. I preferred hanging round with boys.

Do you know what my parents did? Nothing. They let me get on with it. I chose to have short hair, I never wore skirts or dresses (except to one wedding and to school - but I moaned loads about the unfairness of not being allowed to wear trousers to school.) I had the toys and the BMX bike I chose. I wanted to join scouts like the boys but wasn't allowed.

And then I got to my teenage years and grew out of wanting to be a boy. I still never wore dresses, always in jeans and men's t-shirts, but I was happy to be a woman and I was attracted to men.

I dread to think what would happen to me if I were growing up now. I think back then there was more of a toys are toys attitude, so me playing with Star Wars toys, Action Men etc wasn't seen as playing with "boys" toys. Now everything is boys or girls - and everything girls is pink (yuk, it's such a horrible colour!)

Rather than sharing toys we've made kids think there's a huge divide and they can't play with things labelled for the other. Then they think there's something wrong with themselves because they do want to play with that sort of thing.

And then we get to this sort of thing happening.

Yes Brasty, I remember very clearly as a teen, albeit late developing, being utterly disgusted with what was happening to my body in puberty. Hair, boobs, hips, periods, ugh and lots of friends felt the same. I also hated pink, glitter and all the stereotypical things girls are socialised to love and remember thinking how much easier boys had it for everything. I dread to think what is happening to girls today who feel this way, especially those with parents who push them into picking a "gender" even before their secondary sexual characteristics develop.

Op YANBU. Leo's parent need to give their heads a wobble. Leo is not non-binary, they are a girl who likes a variety of different things - they should be able to explore this in a supportive environment. This does not mean showing them transgender threads on tumblr and saying "ooh, Leo, this sounds just like you".

Thanks for the links Basil. I will definitely take a look.

I will NEVER let my DD go through with any type of surgery without them firstly being an adult themselves, but also they must be absolutely 200% sure. There is no child or teen who can make this type of decision... they are just not worldly enough and should not be allowed in any country.

Why are people so vehement about forcing a gender on someone. Do you think children should be forced to be a gender they aren't until they are so disturbed they self harm or commit suicide. If a child isn't solely male or female what are they supposed to do, have a lobotomy?

Gosh I feel for you.

Transgendertrend

Do try this one, and those that AskBasil recommended. They may even be able to point you in the direction of professionals with a different perspective, so that your daughter still feels listened to, but with a different emphasis.

It must be so difficult.

I'm glad my children aren't at school nowadays. Two of them would definitely be offered 'helpful advice' about gender.

If a child isn't solely male or female what are they supposed to do, have a lobotomy?

If a child isn't solely male or female then they will be treated by experts in intersex conditions. If a child isn't intersex then they are solely male or female whatever they'd like to believe.

Since my DD has been heard, the self harm has stopped. This in itself has been worth it. The pain that they endured before being honest with themselves (and us) was unbearable. Love and support can be the only way forward - the gender doesn't matter.

with all very best wishes Unicorn for both of you x

Not heard the broadcast but WTF???? My gorgeous DD refused to wear a dress / skirt once she got to age 4 as it stopped her playing - climbing trees, playing football & running around with her cousins. She had dolls but the lego was mainly that aimed at "boys".

So, had I been this parent, I would have been asking her if she felt more male??? She's still happier in jeans and trainers than in a dress and heels - so much in fact that I nearly passed out in shock when she asked for both to go to an upcoming wedding. And yet this is still the girl who is happiest on a football field or watching the red arrows.

Supporting your child is one thing - but asking about their sexuality - at 10 - is a bit nuts to say the least. Yes, one of DD's male friends came out as gay in year 8 and another (female) wonders if she is bi, but in both cases, the parents just said "well, ok, that's how you feel now, see how things develop".

Once older, if the person is truly trans, then that's fine - trans men / women have gone through a lot of soul searching before transitioning into the person they truly are, so deserve our support. Maybe this child will transition when older, but being forced to decide is just wrong.

And Unicorn you sound truly supportive, I hope that things are better for you and your child and that they find the peace and identity in which they are truly happy -and that you also are able to find comfort once this is complete and you have your child back, in whichever gender that turns out to be.

I hate this hysterical need to slap a label on everyone. All the new terminology - gender non-binary / cis/ etc - how the hell is a ten year old meant to get their head around all these concepts?
I'm aghast at the mother demanding whether her child would be 'gay' or 'straight'.

4. Being transgender is not a choice, it is an imbalance of hormones and chemicals, a bit like any other imbalance.

No it isn't

Using this article because it simplifies the results www.boston.com/culture/health/2015/07/22/study-finds-that-transgender-youth-have-typical-hormone-levels

but here is the the study that tested 101 transgender teens and found their hormone levels matched what was expected of their birth sex. No hormone imbalance was found. www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(15)00216-5/fulltext

even the NHS states that gender dysphoria has no known or obvious cause

Gender development is complex and there are many possible variations that cause a mismatch between a person’s biological sex and their gender identity, making the exact cause of gender dysphoria unclear.