To think a 10 year old girl shouldn't be encouraged to see herself as "nonbinary"

[MrsJamin]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37383914

How is this story so lauded by the right-on BBC? It's so very irresponsible of the parents to persuade a girl that she doesn't need to be a girl. Girls should be told that they are girls, and that doesn't prevent them from liking or doing anything that people say boys should only do. How does she even know what hormone blockers are? She could mess up her health forever by taking hormones in her adolescence. :(

(and yes, another trans thread - I don't care, this is SCARY SHIT right here when girls don't want to be girls)

I have no problem with the transgender issue.

But at 10years old?

How utterly ridiculous.

I think the parents are feeding the child an agenda, another progression of the "My child is a more delicate snowflake then anyone else's" school of thought.

Honestly some people treat their kids like projects not children.

Also, you know what, if it really were a case of a hormone imbalance, why is it ethical to give people hormones to make them more like the sex they think they are, but unethical to give them hormones to make them more like the sex they actually are but don't feel like?

It's all very incoherent.

What my child feels is that the boobs should not be there, their periods (which unfortunately started at 10) are alien - they are so uncomfortable in their own body that they find it hard to leave the house.

Unicorn - I was like this as a child. If I had heard of transgender I would have identified with it. I hid my boobs under baggy tops, tried to strap them down and was utterly disgusted by periods. I still hate my periods tbh and I'm 35.

My DD is going through this now. She is also self harming but only superficially right now (keeping a close eye on it). She cannot cope with the changes to her body at all. I am trying to support her as best I can through love, kindness and letting her be who she wants to be. Some days this is more successful than others.

Please keep listening to your daughter but reinforce that it's ok to be whoever you want to be, that girls can do anything boys can and encourage her to explore her identity and keep her off hormones until she's old enough to make her own choices. If saying she's trans helps keep her mental health in order great but I think it's worth keeping up with councelling. It can take a long while for girls in particular to grow to love their bodies.

You have it spot on with this Love and support can be the only way forward

I'm actually wondering if there's anyone here who didn't feel disgusted, uncomfortable and terrified by their body during puberty.

Unicorn if it's any comfort, I do know someone whose DD went through what your DD is going through and with the support of her mum (who refused to go along with the sexist agenda) she came out the other side a happy proud lesbian.

If her mum hadn't stood up to the experts, she'd probably be taking hormones by now.

We should never underestimate how social fads and fashions affect teenagers. Being trans right now, is much cooler than being a lesbian. It really isn't surprising that non-conforming girls look at the options and conclude that they must be trans.

I hope you get some decent support in your RL.

I used to sleep on my front in the hope it would stop my boobs growing and wear baggy tops. I still don't like having boobs or having periods, apart from they gave me the ability to have children and feed them. I liked Lego, train sets, scaletrix and never ever wanted to play with dolls.

I haven't "grown out of it". I still feel all the things I did when I was ten. Girls shouldn't have to "grow out of" wanting to play with "boys toys" or do "boys jobs". I wish everyone would stop saying that.

However, I am me. I am happy being female because that is what I am. If I ever wanted to be a boy, that was only because what being a boy meant to me- not having a penis, but being able to play with the fun toys.

Oh, and I am happily married. To a man. And I am not bi-sexual. Although I don't think my sexuality is in anyway related to they things I was interested in playing with or I am interested in doing.

Haven't read the whole thread yet, sorry. I know there are lots of trans/nonbinary threads on Mumsnet right now, but they are generally in response to stories in the media, which are appearing ALL THE TIME. I have no idea why the BBC is so obsessed with this issue - barely a day goes by without there being some story on their website - we've had the transgender actors one, the "first woman on the frontline" one and now this. Impossible not to feel that the BBC is far from impartial on this issue and that there has been a deliberate decision to push a particular agenda.

Why the obsession with labeling people? Why can't people let kids be kids?

I hate my periods now and as a teenager even more so.
If we weren't so squeamish (blue period blood on adverts) perhaps it would be such a horrible shock. Growing up for girls and boys is tough but these feelings are normal.
I don't feel female myself but it is a fact of life. I bleed and have had a child.
I used to like 'boys' subjects at school. Why is such an issue being made of this. I understand adults wanting to change their bodies but for children it is entirely normal to hate ones body.

I'm actually wondering if there's anyone here who didn't feel disgusted, uncomfortable and terrified by their body during puberty.

I definitely did! Hated it when my periods started. Really struggled.

I'm actually feeling a bit goosebumps about this. I was vaguely tomboy-ey as a child. If someone had started suggesting to me that maybe I was a boy or non-binary when Inwas 10 I would have absolutely lapped it up! Of course I'm different and special!

(We won't mention the big Diabetes Scare of 1994. "Naturally thirsty girl drank lots of water whilst playing in a sports tournament all day in a 30 degree sports hall" vs "maybe it is diabetes - you must miss Double French immediately to go to the hospital and be checked out! Ooooh - which one did I pick!)

I'm sure that if my thirteen-year-old or ten-year-old self had been told I could turn into a boy and get rid of periods and breasts I would have jumped at the chance.

The mother in the programme is so retrograde, it is untrue. She believes that if you don't want to play with Barbies you must be a girl.

I remember back in the sixties working in a toy shop and a woman came in with a little boy who had obviously been told that he could have whatever he wanted. He first went to a pram and was dragged away from that, then he went to a doll's house and the mother's panic rose. Then I lost sight of him until they came to pay for a toy submachine gun. It was the first time I realised that boys suffer too from this idea that your gender defines what toys you can play with.

Being trans right now, is much cooler than being a lesbian. Yes I think that's so.

I wouldn't want to diminish Unicorn's DC's struggle though. I wish them well.

Being non binary is quite trendy I'm not trying to be dissmisive of people but a kid/teen who identifies as something is seen as unique and cool let them identify as rabbits if that's what they want but don't encourage hormones most kids hate puberty girls especially can find it difficult boobs hips and periods can be really upsetting 1 of my Dds lived in an oversized hoody for 4 years

"Biologically gender is a spectrum"

Gender is social and not biological, so what does this sentence even mean?

Biologically, humans are a sexually dimorphic species. That means there are male humans and there are female humans. Anything else like XXY etc is because something has gone wrong biologically. There is no such thing as a biological spectrum when we are talking about male and female. Those are two distinct groups.

There was some discussion of this issue on R4 a few months ago and I was surprised to find myself agree with the religious conservative they had on to debate the point. Her point was this - if you have a young child who is deeply uncomfortable with the sex they have been born, then the kindest thing to do is to work with that child to try to help him/her come to terms with it and find a way that they are comfortable. And she went on to make the point that boys can like pink, can like ballet and cooking etc, can be sexually attracted to other boys. And vice versa for girls. There are no "boy" things or "girl" things. And I agree with this. I think "kind" is a good word for it - as, surely, hormone therapy and surgery must be a last resort? Surely it's better to help a child to accept herself for who she is and wants to be rather than encouraging her to try to change into something else?

I'd like to carry around a bottle of Cote's icy logic to empty over people who paff around with this nonsense in conversation.

just look at the picture in the article though.

Here you have a child who defines as "non- binary", both/neither boy or girl.

The picture shows no "girl" accessories or colours. Only "boys" toys- a football and a vehicle.

So to me, that reinforces the idea that you don't like pink, glittery shit and dolls, then you're not a girl.

I hate being defined by my gender, mainly because "girl shit" is seen as inferior, and I hate being told what I can/can't do, how I should feel, and what I should be good at, purely because of my sex. Non-binary would suit me down to the ground, again not because I don't feel female, but because I don't fit the stereotype and won't be defined by it.

My children often confuse people, strangers cannot usually tell whether they're male or female. Not because they identify as non binary, but because they are not the expected female appearance. One has short hair, one won't wear dresses, one hates pink. All like running around being physical. I have overheard near-arguments in the park between strangers who seem to be scared or worried by these weird creatures they can't instantly pigeonhole into girl or boy. They are all under 8.

I really do worry that gender stereotyping and everyday sexism is what is leading us down this road. Twice today- one here, once on FB, I have read "oh boys will be boys".

Utterly bloody awful. I was a classic 'tomboy' until about 12, my mum was an old school feminist and I never once felt that somehow identifying with traditional 'boys' things made me any less of a girl.

I was brought up in a very open, free talking environment. yet even I felt horrified by pubic hair and breasts. I remember cutting off my pubic hair with nail scissors because I was just so embarrassed and disgusted by it. What kid wants secondary sexual characteristics??

This is just pointless. It reminds me of all the religious girls who 'promise' never to have sex until they're married. That's a very easy promise to make at 12, when most girls find the idea of sex scary and disgusting. It only counts when the person has actual sexual feelings to act upon or otherwise.

Which isn't usually when they're 10 ffs.

Teenagers are really aware of all the different abbreviations nowadays. At a time when their identity is all over the place anyway due to puberty they now think they can select from a menu, like they're choosing to be an emo or something.

If you remove all the 'new' words, this child sounds totally normal. Surely loads of us wanted to be a boy for large chunks of our childhood's? I certainly did! And what pubescent girl doesn't feel uncomfortable her own body at some point? In fact I'm willing to bet that most women have had periods of hating and being disgusted by their own bodies. There is absolutely nothing new about this, except the labels are different.

Yanbu- fed up with all this PCs crap. Everything these days has to have a title r a syndrome. Everyone seems so frightened of being themselves that they have to name every aspect of their personalitybbbbbbbb

user1471439240 Mon 19-Sep-16 12:37:33

I heard the full piece on R4 early Saturday morning, driving home tired from a 12hr nightshift
It was surreal. I thought i was hallucinating
I felt so sorry for the child

THIS was exactly how I felt and still feel. It WAS surreal - not a single thing about any of it sounded right or true or honest. That mother (I use the term in it's loosest possible sense with regard to that particular woman) needs fucking removing from that poor child.

I wonder how all these children will be in 20 years time, will they have "changed back" or be happy trying to be the opposite sex still. I hope they will be happy but I do think it is unlikely - we certainly don't have enough research to tell.
Whereas for gay teenagers I'm pretty sure life post school is a far more positive experience.

As has been said by PP - everyone is 'nonbinary' wrt gender because gender is just a load of cultural boxes. And everyone (except the few anomalous intersex) is binary wrt to biological sex.

Liking pirates and disliking dolls at 3 a 'warning sign' FFS? No, just a normal non-gender-conforming girl. I'm sorry if it bursts the bubble of the right-on mum but this is entirely boring and banal. It's also entirely normal for kids to 'dress up' in different clothing or different names.

Parents are being told by specialists that if they don't endorse their child's transition they are risking that child's life. But where were all the suicides of trans kids 20, 30, 40 years ago?

They didn't happen, because this is a uniquely modern phenomenon created by fashion and vested interests. There are fashions in medicine just as anything else. Being trans or nonbinary is very cool among kids, so social contagion plays a big part. Add to this the various motivations that lead trans adults to promote childhood transition and you've got a hell of a mess.

Unicorn, I recommend 4th Wave Now a community of parents in your position. You have my sympathy.

I think the problem here is the extreme stereotypes of each gender being promoted as the definition of gender. So a boy likes glitter and dresses, he must be a girl!!!! A girl likes climbing trees and playing soldiers, she must be a boy!!!! A kid isn't into either extreme, they must be non binary!!!!

A man wears a dress, he is now a woman and you better accept him as one. The definition of a woman has been reduced to a costume rather than biological reality. So children are being raised to see people as merely the costumes they wear.

It's in this atmosphere where children are encouraged to confuse themselves with superficial things like appearance and gender categorising themselves according to stereotyped interests/characteristics rather than accepting themselves for what they are. A tomboy, girly boy, macho boy, girly girl, a normal mix......

I feel really sad for these kids tbh. I alway made sure my daughter was raised with an equal amount of boy toys/clothes as girl until she was old enough to express interest in what she likes. I'm sure these gender obsessives would categorise her as mixed gender for her equal interest in cars and princesses.... Absurd. And dangerous.