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Original poster

To think a 10 year old girl shouldn't be encouraged to see herself as "nonbinary"

429 replies

MrsJamin · 19/09/2016 11:44

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-37383914

How is this story so lauded by the right-on BBC? It's so very irresponsible of the parents to persuade a girl that she doesn't need to be a girl. Girls should be told that they are girls, and that doesn't prevent them from liking or doing anything that people say boys should only do. How does she even know what hormone blockers are? She could mess up her health forever by taking hormones in her adolescence. :(

(and yes, another trans thread - I don't care, this is SCARY SHIT right here when girls don't want to be girls)

OP posts:
JellyBelli · 22/09/2016 16:24

How are Social Services not on this case? The parent is clearly pushing their own agenda. Who goes to the press with this?

PinkyOfPie · 22/09/2016 16:25

Ultimately I don't think any of us know what the person in question is actually feeling like so who are we to judge or try and force them to be like us people who feel clearly male or female

I don't feel male or female. I am female with both feminine and masculine aspects to my personality. I am not non binary or gender fluid. I am a woman. Surely this is what we should be saying, not "if you don't conform to this stereotype you must be X"?

ErrolTheDragon · 22/09/2016 16:25

'it is still a chair regardless of the material from which it is made'. Only if it's made out of something which is capable of being made into a chair, though. You can't make a chair out of air.

merrymouse · 22/09/2016 16:26

Dolly, there is no need to choose a gender. Gender is a social construct and while we are all born with physical characteristics - male female, some people intersex, as far as gender is concerned everyone is fundamentally 'non- binary'. Of course it's possible for people to act within or outside social norms, but that does not mean that gender is an innate quality.

On the other hand you cannot choose whether you are male or female. There is currently no way to change biological sex.

So, something that is unchangeable is dishonestly presented as a choice, while the idea that people must slot into an identity box - masculine , feminine or some kind of variant of non binary - is promoted. It isn't acceptable just to be a member of the human race.

And that is before you even start to ask what it it means to 'feel' male or female, and the traits that a 'proper' man or woman is supposed to have.

Concepts of right and wrong gender behaviour have harmed men and women for hundreds of years. Wouldn't it be better if people were just allowed to be people?

WankingMonkey · 22/09/2016 17:14

Why can't you see that you are the ones causing the problem here not the child exploring how they feel in relation to gender.

The child is not exploring how they feel in relation to gender though, this is the point. Gender does not mean a girl cannot have a pirate party..which was what set the mother off convincing her she is actually a boy. This is fucking up childrens minds, nothing to do with exploration.

BenLinusatemyhomework · 22/09/2016 17:26

Oh feminine essence is totally a thing. Come on! It's that feeling, when you're on your period, that overwhelms you and you just have to jump around laughing maniacally with your friends and throwing your arms in the air.

Actually, if your ever confused, here's the rule of thumb - anytime you want to bare your armpits to the world - that's your feminine essence at work. Period- jump around with your armpits showing. Appreciating music - arms in the air. Eating a salad - armpits again. Feeling your feminine sensuality - Bare the pits, baby. Bladder weakness - the pits will get you through...

That and a talent for vapid nonsense.

I gleaned all this off t'telly btw.

merrymouse · 22/09/2016 17:31

Does it have something to do with liking low calorie yoghurt puddings?

BenLinusatemyhomework · 22/09/2016 17:36

Haha, yes. But only if when eating them, you clumsily (yet coquettishly) fall about the place and get a dab on your nose.

BenLinusatemyhomework · 22/09/2016 17:38

If you just snarf it down or get a bit on your chin when licking the lid then you defo have a masculine essence and probably need to adjust your identity accordingly.

Twunk · 22/09/2016 17:54

Does it have anything to do with wearing white trousers whilst doing those things? Cos I don't like white trousers, never wear them. Deeply impractical (especially when on period!)

BakeOffBiscuits · 22/09/2016 18:24

I read in The Times today, sorry can't remembrance her name, that one of the colomnist was making a complaint to the BBC about the programme. She felt the mother wasn't challenged at all about the assumptions she was making about her daughter. As we've all said, the fact she didn't want a princess party at 3 does not mean she identifies as a boy!

WineMummy · 22/09/2016 18:38

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Soubriquet · 22/09/2016 18:42

Awww fanx winemummy

It's nice to see you care so much.

corythatwas · 22/09/2016 18:45

WineMummy, you can't have read this thread very carefully if you have failed to stop that the concern on this thread is not about a child who is trying to be themselves, but about a mother who seems to be stepping in and telling the child what she ought to be.

In the interview, the child says she feels like both a boy and a girl, and the mother immediately steps in and says that she feels like a boy. How is that right???? And how is it right to tell any child, whatever their identity, that wanting a pirate party is a sign that they cannot be a girl????

ErrolTheDragon · 22/09/2016 18:49

Far from'non-binary erasure' many of us think 'non-binary' is simply and boringly normal.

The Times columnist is Janice Turner - good to see some sanity in the media.

hazeyjane · 22/09/2016 19:00

Please don't delete that post from winemummy, it is a valuable reminder of just how vehement (and threatening) people become in discussions about gender issues

user5318008 · 22/09/2016 19:10

Why can't you see that you are the ones causing the problem here not the child exploring how they feel in relation to gender.

Leo's Mum said 'I'm interested in puberty blockers'. Not 'Leo is interested in puberty blockers'. She is interested in putting her kid on an unresearched and unnecessary course of medication because she likes pirates and doesn't wear dresses. I think the problem is fairly obvious and it's not people who don't want to see children used as guinea pigs for no good reason.

Cinnamon2013 · 22/09/2016 19:55

Just listened in full. There seems to be a real issue here of the mum's ownership of the event/experience. The social capital she is gaining. I have no firm opinion on what Leo is/isn't should be/shouldn't be... I'm glad he sounds so happy. But the mother is extremely involved, and I agree strongly with PPs that the sexuality questions are inappropriate, especially on a news interview. This would be different for a sixteen year old.., but ten? Christ

WomanActually · 22/09/2016 22:08

Maybe they will decide at an older age they are male or female but for now they feel neither. Where's the harm in that?

Leo said in the interview that she feels both a boy and a girl. Not that she feels like neither.

I think it's harmful to allow Leo to believe that she has the option to become male when that's not possible for Leo. When Leo becomes an adult and realises that she's been lied to, that Leo is still female and always will be, that has the potential to be very harmful to Leo.

Children tend to believe the things parents and adults in positions of trust tell them. and if they are hearing mum tell the media that Leo is definitely not a girl after Leo has just said she feels both then Leo is getting the message can't be female, and if her own mother is saying Leo is definitely not a girl then can Leo really explore all option as equally?

WomanActually · 22/09/2016 22:22

I'd go so far as to say that based on the interview the Mum isn't giving the chance to be female.

Mum says she's interested in puberty blockers when Leo sounds hesitant. Leo says they'd like a beard and says "but that's not possible without hormones" in a way that sounds like they won't be having hormones.

Leo says they feel both male and female but Mum says Leo is definitely not a girl.

Mum also only gives the option of gay man or straight man when asking about her adult sexuality.

It sounds like Mum does not want Leo to be female, pps mentioned how they wanted to be male after experiencing sexual assault or harassment from males and I've been thinking if it's possible that Leo's mum has had some horrible things happen to her and could be feeling Leo would be safer in the world as a male? Does that sound far fetched?

Unicorn34 · 23/09/2016 08:16

If toomanytolist is still following this thread.... I could not answer your personal message for some unknown reason - and I really wanted to! I have sent you a separate message, please let me know if you cannot open it

Caipira · 23/09/2016 11:56

I got to this bit where "his" mum said

"What would be your name if you were a boy? You've always been more attracted to boys, would you be gay man or a straight man?"

10, 10!!! The child is fucking 10! When was this child "attracted" to boys? When he/she came out of nappies? Learned to walk? When in their short little 10 years have they been around displaying their fucking sexual orientation?

I feel sick....Sad Angry poor kid. I cannot read anymore.

WankingMonkey · 23/09/2016 12:05

I guess in the thoughts of a child..attracted to means 'friend with'. So child says her friends are boys, delusional mother takes this as proof that the child is both trans and gay?

WrongEndoftheTelescope · 23/09/2016 16:03

Surely "being attracted to boys" is a pretty foundational aspect of being a straight female ?

It's bonkers, just bizarre.

Craftylittlething · 23/09/2016 16:13

Couldn't possibly be a ten year old who is a little overwhelmed by puberty? I have a daughter that age who'd quite fancy having a beard and a penis for a day so she can see what it's like to stand up and pee. I don't for a minute think this makes her non binary in fact I think it's perfectly normal and it would be totally screwed up if we decided on the basis of that that as of tomorrow she could be john and tell people she's neither. Bloody hell

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