Child maintaince with a greedy ex

[EveOnline2016]

My brother has his daughter a lot.

This is how it breaks down. 1/2 the school holidays. EOW plus every Monday Tuesday and Thursday after school. Also 1/2 the cost of school uniform.

EOW is Friday after school till bedtime Sunday.

Still ex wants CMO payments.

While he has his daughter he feeds and clothes her and washes and irons the school uniform to send back.

My brother has now stopped the £100 per week maintence or he can't afford to have his dd.

Is this fair.

I agree, whereismumhiding. The threat to go for full time residency, and have the gp's provide the care is a nasty one. And clearly not in the child's best interests, but merely because he resents the payment of CM.

I have known 2 men irl try this little trick - and it is a nasty trick. They didn't get anywhere with it either - because nobody in their right mind would have children put into the care of gp's or other childcare when their own mother is their and willing and able to care for them.

gemtheboats he doesn't, that's the point. Read the whole thread!

*there (dammit).

Hecticlife if you don't want maintenance from your ex that's your problem. That doesn't mean RPs who do expect their ex to pay their share are greedy.

£34 may be all that he is legally required to pay given his wage

But it doesn't alter the fact that his ex has the child 12 nights out of 14 so that's not much over £5 a night to raise a child on.

Shall we just tell the daughter to eat less?

£5 day, wow.

I'm wondering if the daughter wants to spend more time dumped on cared for by grandparents rather than be with her Mum. The OP doesn't seem to have any thought for what is best for the child only at helping her brother get revenge on his ex. It's pretty disgusting. Hopefully she has no children of her own and will realise in time that children are more than pawns in some kind of payback scheme.

My hubby's ex was constantly demanding money etc so he got csa involved. His claim has always been based on us having 1 child when we actually have 3 because he is paying for his son and it isn't his fault our family has grown. Never shirked his duty to the lad and until we moved and he stopped visiting as often (teen with own life etc) always had his own room which we were penalised for. I think your brother needs to do the calculator and pay up. His ex won't just let him have full custody so he needs to just pay up and think what's best for the child stuck in the middle because it's a horrible place for a child to be stuck.

Do some posters think it would be better for NRPs to live in bedsits / one beds and their children not have a room at their place and probably visit less in order to save money on their housing and pay more maintenance to RP? Genuine question. Because both parents are going to be contributing to the raising of the child by having a house and room for them, so saying that he is only paying £5 per day towards raising his child seems really disingenuous. Especially as the daughter may not spend many nights there but she is there after school 3 days a week, fed there etc.

My ex demanded 50/50 overnights straight from the split. I admit I was worried as this means he pays nothing except we split after school childminder evenly. I don't get anything from him.

He earns 3 times what I do so I had assumed he would pay. Maybe just so she could have the same standard of living here as she does with him.

The main reason I tried to fight him on 50/50 custody was that it didn't feel right being with my son a lot less but another reason was I was worried how I'd pay for things without maintenance.

I got over it and did the best thing for our ds after about 3 weeks of heated discussions we both just put his needs first.

Apart from stopping paying (which was a dick move) he doesn't seem like a bad dad, he wants to spend time with the dc and is questioning whether he's paying too much: totally reasonable. The costs associated with this child aren't only the costs the mother has to pay. As well as what he pays to the mum he's also paying what he's paying for the child's bedroom and living costs at his house so his costs &£400 to the mum does seem high.

They should work out costs for 2 bedroom then everything else and split that evenly but doubt she'll get more than £100pw.

To the OP I can empathise with him not trusting her as she cheated, it calls everything she says into question. However I want you to grab him by the lapels and impress upon him this simple truth:

He has two paths open to him now, either he is a great Dad or he pursues this adversarial stance with his ex. He cannot do both simultaneously. I'm not suggesting to repress anything, but merely to get over it for his daughters sake.

I recommend getting him into therapy so he can overcome these feelings and focus on his daughter. I am in a not entirely dissimilar position to your brother, although I have a shared care agreement, and an often times we conflict about things. My best advice is to not get drawn into conflict, but not be a pushover either.

It's fine if economic realities mean has to pay less, but at least try to be upfront and open about it. As well as being a single father, I also come from a broken home and believe me how his daughter sees her mum and dad conflict WILL have an effect. She'll feel stuck in the middle, maybe a need to have to be responsible and diplomatic and parent THEM.

In short don't let your niece have to endure this. Ok your brother was cheated on and I am sure is in pain, but convince him to re-adjust his attitude for her sake. His daughter will still be in the world long after the sting of betrayal has dimmed.

If his ex really really is the devil incarnate then that is all the more reason for your brother to be a force for good in his daughters life.

So my brother should down size to a 1 bedroom flat.

This would save a lot of money, but he wouldn't have any space for his dd.

Where would his dd bed and things inside the bedroom go.

Can't his dd have personal belongings and make to feel she actually belongs in her fathers home.

I don't know why the mother want dd home practically every night.

There are so many mixed feelings here it's mind boggling.
He has to pay child support by law even if on benefits.
He needs to use the cmo calculator to get it worked out correctly, no excuses. The fact he has his child overnight will reduce his payments but that's all. He isn't bound by law to contribute anything else unfortunately so if he's paying for uniform etc that's up to him but is not taken into his cs payments. I've delt with child maintenance from both sides, my ex paying his 1st ex for a child and now him paying me. The new system by cms is run similar to the csa but cms do a yearly check on the nrp and can calculate more accurately what the rp should get. The nrp can no longer lie about income as this is gathered from hmrc directly. I know 15% of a wage isn't much for some people but it is the law and if the nrp wants to contribute more than that's up to them.

Pay for your child.

I don't know why the mother want dd home practically every night.

Er - because it's her child??

The money is for his child. Tell him to pay for his child.

So my brother should down size to a 1 bedroom flat.

I don't think this, just to be clear, I was asking a rhetorical question. Although I have seen this view come up very occasionally on other threads.

MissEliza - yes but equally it's his child too!

I don't know why the mother want dd home practically every night.

Strangely enough it's his child too....

Yes I know it's his child, and naturally he will want to have the child sleep over. But the OP said that she didn't understand why the mother want dd home practically every night.

As I said, why wouldn't she want her child home practically every night? It's her child!!!

I get why she would want her DD. But it seems a bit odd to want her so much that she be brought back home even when bedtime routine/PJs etc has been done at her dad's house. Anyway, if this is what is best for DD, because she gets to see both parents in the same day, that is fine. I dobt imagine it will keep being ideal as she gets older. And it does play havoc with the whole question of maintenance based as it is on overnights.

Eve how did your brother and his ex come to the original agreement of £100 a week?
Was it him offering to pay that amount?
Does his ex need that amount to cover maybe joint liabilities , debts etc?

So, I think a couple of things:

Yes, maintenance is calculated on the basis of overnights - there probably isn't a fairer way to do it but that doesn't mean that it's fair in every situation. I've seen a lot of threads from women whose exes expect them to do the pickup, after school care and then drop off for overnight and people quite rightly point out that that is effectively a way of dodging paying maintenance. I think something similar is going on here - it kind of sounds like the ex wants some of these weekdays to count as "her" days for the purpose of maintenance but isn't actually willing to do the pickup/after school care.

I think, in those circumstances, it's ok for the father to reduce the amount of maintenance that he's paying over and above the CSA minimum. It's totally disingenuous for people to keep trying to claim that the father here only does 2/14 of childcare - he may only do 2/14 of overnights but that is not the same thing.

When both parents do a lot of the childcare - as is the case here - both parents need to have a home that is big enough for the child to have proper space in and both parents will have ongoing costs associated with that. Again, people are being a bit disingenuous for suggesting that somehow only the mother needs this. As someone else has pointed out, it isn't possible to go from two incomes and one household to two incomes and two households without the standard of living dropping and that drop should be shared between the parents.

Excellent post notinagreatplace

I got drawn into this thread whilst looking for unrelated info, so much so I finally joined Mumsnet.

So many on this thread seem blinkered by their own hurt.

The NRP here has and feeds her 9/14 evenings (Monday, Tuesday & Thursday every week and then Every other Weekend)
BUT on paper that is only calculated as 2 over nights in 14.

The NRP also has the additional cost if in council accommodation of paying Bedroom Tax on an unoccupied room (as not RP, room is unoccupied). Some NRP have to pay for 2 rooms because of the age of their children and the gender difference.
This is a cost not levied on the RP and is not taken into any calculation.

He benefits because he is getting that quality time with her after school, sharing her day.

Also this thread is also missing the fact that NOT ALL NRP are male!!

Many RP are very clever in avoiding the number of ONs clicking over the change of status threshold.

So for example a child which normally spends Wednesday & Thursday Evening with NRP and then EVERY weekend also with the NRP (so seeing the NRP 5/7 days a week).
the child/children then goes away on holiday with the NRP the RP will sit outside the door to take the child back as soon as they arrive home (even at 2am) so that is one less "overnight" with the NRP and then prevents the child/children from seeing the NRP for 3 -4 weeks (farming them out here there and everywhere)(or seeing them but they can not stay over) so as not to click over that "magical" 104 nights a year.

Both parties CAN be underhand.

The courts nearly always favour the Mother, even if it is not the best for the child. The physical/mental/emotional health of the child should be truly considered not the norm, Mum is best. Many PAS (Parent Alienation Syndrome) Mums & some Dads out there that destroy their child's relationship with the NRP so the child can share their hatred of them.

No one on here has asked how much he is paying else where, maybe he like so many men is having to pay a mortgage on a nice house (RP still living in) that he can not even set foot in, while living in a basic rented flat.

People rush into sleeping together and relationships too quickly without commitment and then give up on relationships TOO easily these days.

A relationship is BOTH parties working at it regardless, unless a truly dangerous relationship.

Yes I am ready to hung drawn and quartered for my comments and views.

But too many blind NRP haters on here.

Ego and Petal have said some sound things on here.

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The image that always comes to mind when discussing RPs & NRPs is vising a friends house and their daughter was swirling around the room and jumping off the stairs as she was so happy after the day out with her cousins and NRP, she ran over to me sharing what she had bought and excitedly telling me about all she had seen.
The telephone rang it was her RP, the phone was handed over to her and the RP asked how the day had gone and she replied in a very dull mono-tone voice it was ok.

Sadly she had learnt that she had to pretend that she was not happy at her NRPs so that she would still be allowed to visit and stay.

Other times she would also be dropped off in tears because her RP would have picked an argument just as the daughter was leaving. The daughter would then ring her RP and say she was sorry and she loved the RP, the RP would then promptly slam the phone down on her without replying, so unsettling the child while at the NRPs.

Don't tell me RPs do not do this and more.
How much mental damage is being done and by whom and for what end!

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OK now I am ready to be slated
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Well said notinagreatplace

Poppy
I actually don't disagree with you that SOME RP's can act in a destructive way like that towards the NRP.

But also many NRP's behave incredible destructively towards the RP. Withholding maintenance is one of the main ways they do so. But there are others, like changing the plan for when they'll have the child at the last minute or refusing to take them to clubs and birthday parties as it's 'their' time, etc.

I have no skin in this game - I'm widowed, not divorced so I meet all my children's needs - emotional, practically, financial. It's bloody difficult and there is no doubt that my children miss out from not having a second loving parent in their lives. Little is sadder than hearing about parents who choose not to meet their kids needs, whatever they may be, when I know how much my husband wanted to live longer to be able to do so for ours.

But my children all have many friends with divorced parents, and many of my friends are divorced. I observe (much) more RP's (mainly mothers) who are working hard to meet their children's needs with inadequate support from selfish NRP's (mainly fathers) than the opposite. I also think the stats for average maintenance payments being so abysmally low bear out this observation.

All the people I know who work hard at co-parenting and really both put their children first (and thankfully I do know more people like this than the other kind) have largely separated maintenance and residence as issues. The NRP (or higher earner in a 50/50 split) pays what they both work out to be a fair sum to the RP/lower earner. This only fluctuates if circumstances such as new relationships or child's needs change. It's the way mature, responsible parents would do things, but unfortunately it takes both people in the couple to behave that way.