£9000 per year plus living costs and it is policy for the university tutor not to talk to,parents...am I being too precious?

[MillyDLA]

Just wondered your thoughts. My ds has missed the credits needed to move to his next year at uni, failing one exam by 2%. He has only just been told today that he can't return to uni until Sept 2017. I would have liked to have discussed this and meet with the personal tutor to support my ds in making the right choices. I want him to stop and consider all of his future options. However, even with my ds present the uni have refused any contact. I know my ds is a grown up, but this is a big decision. Added to that are all of the financial implications, student loans, a flat signed for for the whole of next year and future career/change of degree options. Big decisions to make.

I am interested in your thoughts around the lack of contact by the uni.

Thanks

Hi Op. Sorry things are not going well for your son.
My DD left uni part way through her first year and I did attend her final meeting with her tutor where DD confirmed she had decided to withdraw. DD did email her tutor to ask permission for me to attend. I am glad they let me - her tutor was lovely and I was there for moral support for my DD.
Yes my DD was 18 but her mental health was being affected and I obviously did what I could to support her.
The only advice I can give re: MN is never to post in AIBU!
Good luck to your DS

So, basically, the university are 'doing the right thing 'in terms of communication, after all!

I have been surprised by this thread too, that the 'customer' mentality still persists even though the loans are all in the student's name and that these students are adults. I don't think that means parents shouldn't be involved, but it is up to the student if they want that. The first thing I ask if a student is in difficulties is 'have you told your parents' and strongly encourage them to do so if they haven't.

The thing most students cry about in my office, once they are in difficulties is 'letting their parents down'. I do honestly believe most parents have their children's best interests at heart, but a few don't and do pressure students to do unsuitable courses or continue when it's not a good idea or in other ways are not quite the 'model' parents that people think of on MN (also they may have mh or alcohol problems themselves, I am currently supporting someone in that situation who lives with her grandmother and has had a very difficult start to uni life).

I always tell them to be honest with parents, get them involved in the conversation. I had a student break down in an assessment recently and encouraged them to go home to mum and dad, regroup and come back. The student did, with their support, and has successfully finished the degree. What I don't do though, is reach for the phone myself to talk with parents myself. They are not my students, and it is better for the student, who knows the parental relationship, to start that conversation. The only exception is if the student is having severe mental health difficulties and we fear for their safety (and this is done by a welfare officer).

I think our uni offers great support for students having difficulties, and our recent research on this bears this out, the students all felt very well supported and knew where to turn.

Parents are, to me, for 18-22 year olds, a pillar of support for students, and can advocate for them too, but they aren't in the decision-making capacity they had up to 18 and that's really difficult to manage for everyone, but that's how it should be when we are all helping our students towards independence. You wouldn't go and see their manager if they got on a M and S training scheme age 19, and it's similar really.

Again I say it depends on the person. My son asked for my help. My daughters would hardly be in touch all term. In fact with my son he gave me his on line passwords so I could remind him of essay dates. He is dyspraxic (and I am not inventing that - he was assessed, needed extra time etc etc and eventually a university special needs person did speak to me - at his and her choice which was fine). What helped him in the end was when he chose to give me assess to his deadlines for things and we could set up a system of reminders. I then had much more knowledge about his modules, what he had to do and all the rest than I could possibly want with a full time job and younger children at home (!) but it did save the day. So in that sense the system worked but I think if parents are involved earlier it can be better.

I certainly accept that people of 18 (I was at university at 17 actually as I was a year ahead at school) mostly can make their own choices and I don't act as a helicopter parent unless asked (as my son asked me eventually).

Academics tend to be very bright but a bit fed up about low pay and they end up being a bit like teachers who think they are little Gods as they rule over their own domain every day. So you tend to find on line that teachers and academics have a very forceful stance and strong views. That does not mean we shoudl be silenced when putting our own views back to them and of course we are grateful they are there to teach our adult children and plenty of them are very helpful; some though prefer their research and see the students as a bit of a nuisance.

As I am about to commit to paying about £150k for my twins over 3 years from next year, yes I do feel very very invested in the process and with right to know what is going on.

You wouldn't go and see their manager if they got on a M and S training scheme age 19, and it's similar really

It's not the same.

A person of 19+ who is in work is not the same as a student. (And in any case, if they WERE faced with 'dismissal' or something that seemed unfair, they COULD have an advocate- a parent or someone else.)

As long as the maintenance element of the student finances is assessed on parental income, parents are stakeholders. This is an anomaly to me because on the one hand 18 yr olds are 'adults' but their parental income is assessed. Madness.

As I am about to commit to paying about £150k for my twins over 3 years from next year, yes I do feel very very invested in the process and with right to know what is going on.

You're going to pay their student tuition fees? (£50K a year x 3 years?)

Your call, but financially it doesn't make sense- get some financial advice! Far better to hold onto your money then let them pay off the loan when they work, and pay them each month if you want to , once they have graduated.

I suspect most of that is living costs.

polly I actually agree with that, in that the parental contribution makes it seem as if you have control over the service, when you don't- of course, many parents don't make a parental contribution, it is not legally binding to do so. This was always the case, though, even within the old grant system

IMO, paying £9000 a year and the cost of living being high not only places the relationship between parents and the uni under strain, it also places additional pressure in the parental -student relationship, as failing, dropping out, having difficulties, now becomes entangled with parents having paid a lot of money, which it didn't under the old grants system. The students know their parents have sacrificed a lot and paid a lot, and their 'failures' become magnified as a result. Telling the parents is one of the hardest things for students to then do. What can you do within that system, with people who are technically adults, who may not even want parental involvement?

The remark about 'little gods' is not really accurate, individual lecturers or even whole departments don't set policy for the uni on data protection, resits, credits, remarking, and so forth- they are centrally managed by the uni as a whole. Some, such as parental contribution, are set by government. We actually have very little room for maneuver or discretion as individuals. I personally prefer this so it's not about individual negotiations which wouldn't be fair to all the students.

you have a right to support your son and discuss his options with him. however that right is not extended to discussing with university.

all universities have their policies online for open access. go through them with your son, advise him, get his opinion, and then let him make the calls.

the money is irrelevant. doesn't matter how much you have paid. fees are covered by loans which the students take out.

its a time to find there own 2 feet with only guidance from you.

op, you have received too many harsh and sneery replies here, probably from posters with kids still at primary who are experts on the teen years already....

though there is great advice too from uni lecturers doing the actual job and parents who have been there with their own kids or who are starting the process this week

its been a very interesting thread to read.

bounty you talk about students 'being in your office'- are you a uni counsellor?

I think it's relevant to think about how universities themselves differentiate between students: there are 'students' and 'mature students'. The latter do not have their parental income assessed.

As long as there is a link between parental income and eligibility for loans/ grants, etc, students will never be entirely independent and 'mature' compared with someone of the same age who is working or on a higher apprenticeship scheme.

Also the entire set up at uni: personal tutors, pastoral staff, counselling, student welfare dept, mentors, 'Night line support service, and so forth, are based on the understanding that 18-21 year olds need support in a different way to young people in the workplace. The expect parents to be out of the picture is unrealistic.

Wishing you and your son good luck for the future. Come over to the education thread it is much kinder.

Quite difficult to see at the moment but this might turn out to have a positive effect on him in the end. He is going to mature more rapidly in this year out and if he goes back he is likely to end up with a better degree as a result.

I've got four dc ranging from age 15 to 20. I would say that one is less mature than the others. If you have one or two well organised dc it must make life so easy but some teens take a lot longer to grow up no matter what you do as a parent. My disorganised one and your son will get there in the end. It is a pain but we are still very lucky. There are MUCH worse things that could have happened.

Agree about the university support structures. Some universities are better.

As long as there is a link between parental income and eligibility for loans/ grants, etc, students will never be entirely independent and 'mature' compared with someone of the same age who is working or on a higher apprenticeship scheme

There has always been a link though and yet in the past parents didn't expect to have direct contact with the university if their children were adults.
I went to university in the mid-eighties and whilst parents certainly advised and supported their children, the idea of a parent contacting the university directly would have been laughable. Perhaps it is because the majority of people over 18 years of age worked and you wouldn't expect to go into an adult child's workplace and speak to their employer. I would have felt quite infantilised if my parents had treated me differently to my friends just because I had chosen to do a degree.

There has always been a link though and yet in the past parents didn't expect to have direct contact with the university if their children were adults.

But how do you know that mary? You can judge from your own (narrow) experience of your uni and your friends, but that's all.

In the 80s we didn't have the www. We didn't have the media reporting in the way they do now. For all you and I know, parents may well have had input into their child's uni experience. Just because you weren't aware of it, didn't mean it wasn't happening.

I went to uni in the early 1970s. There was in my personal experience, parents 'pulling strings' by talking to uni and enabling their children to move courses as one example.

The other thing that has changed is funding. In the 70s and, I think, the 80s, tuition was 'free'. Some parents did contribute to living costs- mine didn't as they were poor, but friends were at the mercy of their better off parents to cough up - some did, others didn't. The other change is the school leaving age. Many children left school at 16 whereas now, adolescence is prolonged partly due to being in school longer. Psychologists have recently said that adolescence lasts until age 25. So the idea what someone is a fully fledged adult and emotionally mature at 18 is not the case.

These are not children. They are adults, and they are responsible for their own failures. You should not be helicoptering over them. It's creating all kinds of anxiety and MH problems. Let them grow up - and that means making, and living with the consequences of, their own mistakes.

Most of us who have to deal with the parents of adults trying to interfere feel a bit sorry for the young adult, and a bit amazed by the parent's controlling and infantilising behaviour.

I'm surprised they wouldn't talk to you with your DS there...we would do that here.

The problem is really the fact you have to wait a whole year for the next resit possibility.

The other problem is that if your DS can't pass on the resit then there is serious thinking to do on what his future is likely to be on the course. Were there mitigating circumstances, illness or bereavement etc.?

If there were then it is just very unfortunate that no more exams are possible for a year. If not, then your DS really needs to consider what is going to change that means he will not only do much better on the next resist opportunity but somehow do much better on the harder courses that are to come in the next years.

(I accept the points on funding a child. It is my choice and it is as much about psychology as financial - we hate debt as a family so not prepared that the children start life with debts and I can afford it and I don't trust the sate one inch not to change the student loans rules in the future, mess up their admin, not take account of repayments etc etc Also the girls are almost at or over £100k within not too many years of leaving university so am pretty sure most of the children would be having to pay the loans back.

It was the same back in my day my parents chose to make the minimum grant up to the full grant and it was very kind of them and they wanted us to study sensible courses which we did but also of course with the teenager being the one who decides. If one of mine wanted to devote their life to God or they spent every last bit of spare time painting or whatever I very much doubt I would refuse funding but I would want to be part of the decision if I am paying. They also all know they don't have to be funded by me. They could take loans instead - if say they hated me or didn't want my input or were picking something everyone else, the school, me, thought was a aste of time, worst universi9ty in the country etc they are bright enough at 17 and 18 to know they could say - could not care less what the parent says it is London Met to study knitting for me.

PollyPerky How do you know that I am judging it only from my personal experience of being a student in the 80s As well as going to university myself, most of my friends and family (including DH and my father) are or were academics.

Yes, tuition was free but some parents (e.g. mine) were had to pay all living costs and if they didn't students couldn't go to university. There were no loans so if anything parents such as mine had more of an investment in their children going to university than they do today. They still didn't expect to speak directly to tutors etc.

I'm not a uni counsellor, just a normal lecturer who has an interest in supporting young people at uni. I don't even have a pastoral role now as there's a specific tutor for that, although I have been a personal tutor in the past. However, over a year, there are always students who run into difficulties, can't 'get' what they have to do, have outside pressures which mean it's difficult to finish work or whatever. We have well-established rules for extensions and mitigation which mean these things are not decided by us, but often students who come for 'help' with their essay end up crying as their brother is in trouble, or there's health problems in the family. My experience is that most lecturers offer unofficial as well as official support and spend a lot of time with students, I have to say that this falls a lot more on the female staff as they are seen as more friendly and approachable by staff, in fact this can become an issue if students are essentially needing counselling instead of a bit of support, but we do have a counselling service as well although IMO not enough for the size of the student body.

I am obviously not remote or scary or focused only on my research enough!

Also the girls are almost at or over £100k within not too many years of leaving university

Lightbulb moment!

Polly Most lecturers have some pastoral responsibilities nowadays. We have a list of personal tutees (I think I have about 25 at the moment, but some we'll never see as they have no use for the service). Our office hours are their first port of call for academic or other problems, though usually we just point them in the right direction (counselling service, housing advice centre, dyslexia service, etc).

^Sixth form for example used to be a natural stepping stone from school to university. Many people left school at 16 so those who stayed on were adults who had opted to do so and were treated as adults.
There were generally far fewer sixth forms with uniforms, blazers and strict rules about where to spend study leave or free periods. School reports home to parents about the progress of their 17 and 18 year old's was also not the norm.^

Tiggy what era are you talking about here? I used to teach 6th formers and have vivid memories of reports, parents' evenings and contact with parents. As a parent, I was fully informed of my children's progress throughout their 6th form years too.

ilove not sure why you are posting that for my benefit? I know what goes on both as a parent and through work which involves contact with people like yourself.

PollyPerky Your question "you talk about students 'being in your office'- are you a uni counsellor?" suggested that you weren't familiar with how personal tutoring at universities works (in particular the fact that many academic staff act as personal/pastoral tutors).