I'm so sorry it's about disabled bus seats

[YourNewspaperIsShit]

But It's absolutely not the normal "having a dig" thread and if I wasn't torturing myself about the situation I promise I wouldn't post it.

So I don't drip feed: I'm autistic and have an invisible physical disability.

The bus to DD's nursery was just a small one on this occasion and there was one wheelchair/disabled seat. The front seats have 'elderly' signs on and there's a sign on the wheelchair seat saying something like "This seat is for wheelchair users. Small prams and buggies may use this seat but must move if a wheelchair user needs access". Totally acceptable, I have no dispute.

So basically what happened was I got on to pick DD up from nursery, normally we go in the car but only DP drives and he was called to work. I have 6 month old DS in his pram (Silver Cross Wayfarer if it's relevant coz I can't fold it). I was in a lot of pain that day or I would have used his sling, i physically couldn't do it. In fact I kind of lean on the pram like a zimmer frame IYSWIM.

Pay for my ticket, park pram in the space and sit in the disabled seat. Every other seat on the bus is taken. Elderly people in the front seats. Halfway through the journey we reach a bus station and a lady in a wheelchair is in the queue, bus driver tells me to get off. Normally I'd 100% do this but I wouldn't have made DD's pick up.... She is only 4 so can't exactly wait another 30mins for the next bus.

I start having a panic attack with the situation and kind of splutter out that I really need to catch the bus. The absolutely lovely lady in the wheelchair says she's only taking her shopping home and will wait for the next bus.

Bus driver, assuming I guess that I'm just a snotty young entitled mother demanding the seat, continues to tell me to get off the bus. I start to cry.

I manage to choke out that I'm also disabled and get told "aye of course you are love, what kind of person takes a seat from someone in a wheelchair". It then felt like he was pitting us off one another, like some awful 'disability contest' saying things like "go on then what have you got, is it worse?"

The lady eventually gets through to him that she really isn't in a rush and goes out of the station so he can't just sit and wait for her. He reluctantly drives off with a shitty attitude and a grunt

I don't know what I'd have done without her lovely calm demeanor. I'm still absolutely mortified that I didn't get off the bus though, if it wasn't for DD there's no way I'd have stayed on.

Totally prepared to hear I WBU, especially for starting a bus seat thread. But I can't stop thinking about it and have noone to discuss with IRL

In hindsight I would have caught an earlier bus but usually they have big ones with 3 disabled/pram seats so I didn't think.

Arseicle I am saying that ALL disabled people who NEED a disability aid that cannot be folded, should have equal access

Which means that you want the right of the w/c user to the w/c space to be REMOVED! That is what that means.

It is a BUS. There is not much room on a bus. Can you not understand these basic facts. You cannot have equal access for all because the outcome of that is NO ACCESS for some.

Jesus, have you ever even been on a bus?

In that case buses need to be redesigned, because as it is the system is limiting access for disabled people who don't use wheelchairs.

And yes, I travel on buses daily. The current setup is not fit for purpose.

In that case buses need to be redesigned

Tell us what that bus would look like then. Because all I hear is a lot of hot air about how everyone should always be able to ride the bus no matter what, and no actually suggestions about how this could be achieved because it can't

Of course it can. Off the top of my head, all buses could be double decker, upstairs could be for able bodied people, downstairs could be for people who need extra space, with fold up seats for anyone who needs to sit. It's hardly rocket surgery.

Oh, and also where you propose to get the money to redesign and buy all the new buses you need, that would be useful to know to.
You have to be realistic, ideology doesn't get people to where they need to be.

Off the top of my head, all buses could be double decker, upstairs could be for able bodied people, downstairs could be for people who need extra space, with fold up seats for anyone who needs to sit. It's hardly rocket surgery

Ok, so half the bus is reserved for non able bodied people. And these buses will all drive around half empty so those spaces are never taken up by those that don't need them?
You're going to need even more money then, as you'll need to double the number of buses.

And your argument was used to explain why there were no wheelchair spaces years ago, it turned out that was incorrect. They just need to move forward and consider all people because quite a few have been overlooked.

No, you wouldn't. The upstairs level is much bigger for one thing. Sorry if you find it hard to accept, but it is possible with a bit of thought and planning.

Drivers get some real shit from some buggy users. I was on a london bus yesterday and a double buggy was in the space. Another large buggy tried to get on, driver said no and que 15 minutes of shouting and swearing by second buggy which only ended when the bus radio control thing said police were on there way.

It's not possible. Again MONEY. Where are you getting that from? There are 10,ooo buses just in London, how many in the UK, do you think?

You need hundreds of millions to redesign and replace them all.

As I said above, the same argument was used against providing wheelchair spaces but they managed.

I'm not sure if you being intentionally obtuse or just defeatist, but it could be done, it just needs a bit of thought. You may disagree, fair enough.

No, it wasn't.Stop trying to deflect from the reality here. You can't answer how you'd pay for it, because you know you can't/
It doesn't need a bit of thought, it needs a LOT OF MONEY.

And still wouldn't work because you haven't begun to think it through.

I think it is possible in the future. If the wheelchair space was hit by campaigning and action then why stop there.
Let's face it, if buses were way more accessible than they are now, that would be a very good thing.

All the seats could be flip down.

Yes they can't be redesigned en masse and immediately but it can be st least discussed and thought about for future planning.

Saskia I think you're partially right. They couldn't all be double deckers though because certainly I can think of at least a couple of routes in the area that go under a low bridge which would take a lot longer to go round.

The other issue is exactly the same as disabled parking. People will just use it anyway, so you might just as much get on a bus and find it full. People will think "oh there's loads, so it doesn't matter if little me always uses it as I'm only on a few stops". Once they've done that a few times they feel entitled and will object if asked to move.

I also suspect that people are going to start trotting out the "I have an invisible disability" line. By that I think some entitled people will twig that it's something others won't argue with and will use it happily because it gets what they want-when they don't have one.

The situation for people needing space downstairs would depend on the actual person most of the time. My daughter has one hand-she'd dash upstairs as a preference (although Alton Towers would refuse to let her go on the Smiler ride because if it broke down she might have to climb down a ladder-however if someone comes in a wheelchair they are happy to ask them "can you climb down a ladder" and let their answer stand ). However standing can be harder for her as she only has the one hand to hold on by. So coming upstairs would be fine, standing wouldn't be-should she use the seats downstairs or not?

The other thing is that double deckers are more expensive to run (assuming same number of people on them) so they'd either be putting fares up or frequency down. And in a lot of areas they've just upgraded buses so it would be a long time coming in.

Putting more seats sideways to be folded would be an answer, but then I think they're less safe for the general passenger sitting on them, so that needs to be looked at.

It needs to be a fairer world for people both in wheelchairs and with other disabilities. It's too easy for them to be overlooked in the general population. But it's also too easy for the general population to do this.

Yes, disability discrimination is against the law-but how often is this used. The only time I've tried to use it for dd2 (and it really was disgraceful) the county council said "nothing could be proved because it was my word against hers." Looking back she deliberately waited until there was no one that would testify against her. And the organisation has done similar again and apparently there's still nothing they can do because there's "no proof". If two independent people (it's a friend of a friend and I only found out about her after both of us had put the claim in) are saying similar things there's a good chance it's happening. And I suspect there's others who haven't complained.

I think it would be a good idea most of the time to bring in a fine for buggy owners who refuse to fold-but then you get a case like the OP, where it isn't as cut and dried.

Blimey saskia don't you see your plan means the bus only has half the capacity it does now? That's 50% fewer tickets sold and you would need double the number of buses to make the same revenue as now( which isn't much anyway which is why bus travel is subsidised by the state)

It's just a ridiculous idea.

Whatever, Arseicle.

To less angry posters - I can see the problem with double deckers, that was just a quick idea. But, I do think it should be possible to come up with a long term solution. Bus companies were able to find a way for wheelchair users to access buses, so it shouldn't be impossible to expand that.

There should definitely be way for people who are entitled to that space to prove it, and yes, people who shouldn't be there should face a penalty. Inspectors manage to catch fare dodgers so that could be something they look out for too.

Arseicle

Can you not understand these basic facts. You cannot have equal access for all because the outcome of that is NO ACCESS for some.
It would be completely unacceptable that some people would be left without access, which is why a child with a non-folding walking frame should have equal access to an adult in a wheelchair.

Tell us what that bus would look like then. Because all I hear is a lot of hot air about how everyone should always be able to ride the bus no matter what, and no actually suggestions about how this could be achieved
We're only talking about changing a few seats at the front to folding seats so that the space is more flexible. People with disabilities who need that space would get priority to use it however they need to - whether that be walking frame, scooter, SN buggy or wheelchair, and when those spaces are not in use, anyone can use them.
The vast majority of the time, parents are able to fold buggies, just occasionally, due to the parent or child's disability, that isn't possible. Disabled access must include all disabled people, you can't just pick and choose which disabled people are entitled to adequate access.

Ok, so half the bus is reserved for non able bodied people. And these buses will all drive around half empty so those spaces are never taken up by those that don't need them?
Do you know what flip-down seats look like? - you find them in trains, buses and even taxis. We just need more of them.

it needs a LOT OF MONEY.
So we shouldn't bother with disabled people who aren't wheelchair users because they cost too much money? All disabled access costs money. Making more of the tube network accessible is costing a fortune. Do you think that should be stopped because it costs too much?

It wasn't an idea, it was just a random thought. I wasn't suggesting it should be written in stone and made into a policy. Are you always so rude?

I also suspect that people are going to start trotting out the "I have an invisible disability" line. By that I think some entitled people will twig that it's something others won't argue with and will use it happily because it gets what they want-when they don't have one.
Then you include the entitlement on the disabled bus pass. I have never had an issue with proving my disability - I prefer it to be honest, but it has to be a card that cannot be questioned. You show the card and you get priority use of the space.

Flip seats would have solved my problem or just not running ridiculously small buses at school/nursery letting out times so it wouldn't be so full. If it was a normal bus we could have both got on.

It's not fair to say that disabled mothers and mothers of disabled (but non-w/c user) children should just get on with it and not campaign for something to change. No-one would say that to a wheelchair user or an elderly person. It's like suggesting we are in lesser need or basically saying "tough shit it can't be done"

Also if the bottom floor was adapted for disabled access I'm sure able bodied people could still use the seats Even the front two rows is all it would take. Able bodied people are able to stand and sit in any type of disabled seating.

yournewspaperisshit

Please hide the thread now.

You didn't do anything wrong & there's nothing you could or should have done differently.

The bus driver was rude. If you have the energy you should report him because his attitude was awful.

You are right in that there isn't a specific, designated, place for you on the bus. The bus companies all seem to have different signs/seating/explanations for their symbols.

The bottom line is that you needed to use public transport. The only way you can access public transport with your children is to use a sturdy pram that doubles as a safe mode of transport for your baby and a walking aid for you. I fail to see how this is any different than someone using a wheel chair. (And yes, I have needed to access things as a carer of someone in a wheelchair).

Try to get a card making thus clear for any future travels.

But most importantly, accept that you didn't do anything wrong at all 💐

How is that narrow minded? How would anyone on the bus know any of that

I wasn't talking about people on the bus, I was referring to posters on the thread who have been fully informed of the ins/outs of the situation and OP's medical condition yet are still hellbent on insisting an autistic woman with mobility issues was chucked off a bus. Even though she and the other also disabled lady resolved it amicably by behaving like you know, compassionate human beings. Unlike the driver and the increasingly rude and aggressive posters on here.

Very interesting points MyWineTime