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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to say NO to an Islamic wedding?

440 replies

user1472724168 · 01/09/2016 11:21

Sorry about the USER 1 TRILLION AND 68..

I have created a new account as I cannot remember my account details for my main account. I am a regular user but did not want this linked to my main account.
I have been with DP for 5 years. We are expecting our first baby in December and we have been engaged for 1 year. We decided not to get married until we had a new larger property which is fine.
DP’s mum and dad are from different religions, his mum is a Muslim and she was shunned from her family when marrying her husband. My DP and his siblings were christened but raised with no religion. I was raised with no religion.
Once the older family members of DP’s mum passed away she slowly was accepted into the family again. She now practices Islam and fasts, celebrates EID etc.
When we first announced the pregnancy she mentioned us having an Islamic ceremony. Myself and DP both said no- end of conversation.

Last night his mum asks us both if we would do this ceremony, that she doesn’t ask anything of us and this will make her happy. I said no immediately whereas DP said no then when he was told it would be a 10 min thing and would not take much effort I could see he was thinking about it.

Once we got home he asked me and I said no and it’s not up for discussion. He asked me why not and I said no I am not religious, have no interest in Islam and I do not need a reason tbh. He said he wasn’t interested but it would make his mum happy. I said that I will make him happy if it was something he genuinely wanted but I am not in a relationship with his mum and do not need to make her happy.

We argued where he said that it means a lot to his mum, but nothing to me and would not affect my life in any way. He looked pissed off and said that I should not say I would do anything for him if that wasn’t true..
He is not religious at all and doesn’t care but from my point it will make his mum look more respectable in her community. AIBU to say no?

I am upset this morning and it is difficult to conversate with him about it as really I have no reason not to do it apart from I am not interested in Islam!!

OP posts:
hopskip123 · 01/09/2016 19:45

OP I'm not sure if you are aware but there is no issue with the "bride" in an Islamic ceremony not being a Muslim. It is indeed a 2 minute affair. It is not a blessing or anything similar. It consists of confirmation in front of witnesses that both parties agree to be married, that's all.

chilipepper20 · 01/09/2016 20:04

It is not a blessing or anything similar. It consists of confirmation in front of witnesses that both parties agree to be married, that's all.

is that really all? because then they will be married in the eyes of islam and anyone who thinks that carries weight.

alfagirl73 · 01/09/2016 20:19

Personally, as an atheist, there is absolutely no chance I would agree to this. You are clearly uncomfortable with the idea (and rightly so), and therefore keep it simple - say no. Stand your ground and make it clear that it is quite simply not happening. Just because you don't have any religious beliefs, it doesn't mean that those WITH religious beliefs take priority or get to dictate to you what kind of wedding ceremony you have. It's YOUR wedding, so you have it YOUR way.

As for the circumcision, you have no idea how much this puts chills through me. You must not only be firm on this but make sure that there is no opportunity for it to be done behind your back.

To the pp who seems to think it's inconceivable that someone would take a child and have a circumcision done behind the parents' back, much as you don't want to believe it happens, I'm sorry to say, it does. A lot. It is carried out by a religious person, who often is without the proper medical qualifications, where the normal consenting procedures are non-existent, and in an environment that certainly is not up to the standards of a hospital. Sadly I have had to deal with a number of medical-legal cases involving the poor doctors (properly qualified doctors) who get these poor babies dumped on them to repair when it all goes horribly wrong. I've seen numerous cases where there are little boys who have had irreparable damage done by these people. I've even seen it where they try to cover up the damage they've done and leave it too long to get the child proper medical treatment. It's sickening, barbaric and whether you want to believe it happens or not - it very much does.

It's your wedding, it's your child - stand firm. I agree with the people who have said it's a slippery slope going forward if you agree to it. If you go through with the ceremony you are, in effect, setting a precedent where they know if they put enough pressure on you about something, you will give in eventually. Don't even give them a chance to start with that. Nip it in the bud - now.

fuzzywuzzy · 01/09/2016 20:35

Chillipeper what's your point? OP will be married in the eyes of everyone anyway.

I understand and agree with OP she shouldn't have a religious ceremony of a religion she is not a part of and does not want.

If OP is worried about something sinister she really should not be getting married to the DP at all, potentially a legally binding English marriage has the potential of a massive fall out and a very expensive and lengthy divorce.

PrettyBotanicals · 01/09/2016 21:04

a legally binding English marriage has the potential of a massive fall out and a very expensive and lengthy divorce

Yes. And will be heard in courts in which sexual equality is a given and there are no automatic decisions made in favour of the man either in custody arrangements, the religion of the children or the alimony granted.

fuzzywuzzy · 01/09/2016 21:22

She's in England she'll have that anyway. Have I missed a post where OP or her DP are in a non UK country?

And actually childrens matters hearings are entirely dependant on the judge you end up with. And the amount of money you have to throw at the court case.

I'd not marry anyone who I didn't trust implicitly.

ollieplimsoles · 01/09/2016 21:39

I'd not marry anyone who I didn't trust implicitly.

I agree with this.

And op, if your future mil wont respect your wishes now, you know you won't be able to leave your child with her don't you?

Italiangreyhound · 01/09/2016 22:15

....Just as an aside you can be married in a C of E church because everyone in the country is in a parish, the church is there for the people of the parish. So you can marry in your parish or your fiancee's parish or (as in my case) the parish I worshipped in).

The C of E doesn't marry divorcees in church except in exceptional circumstances. Are you sure puzzle your fourth time at marriage person wasn't widowed?

How you feeling OP?

chilipepper20 · 01/09/2016 22:27

Chillipeper what's your point? OP will be married in the eyes of everyone anyway.

yes, but only in the eyes of islam if it is an islamic wedding.

If OP is worried about something sinister she really should not be getting married to the DP

he may not be planning anything sinister now, but marriages do fail. why be at the mercy of some system the OP doesn't understand that may work against her?

Summerwood1 · 01/09/2016 22:31

No way,don't do it!

Puzzledandpissedoff · 01/09/2016 23:14

Are you sure puzzle your fourth time at marriage person wasn't widowed?

Unfortunately I'm absolutely positive; her third husband was still very much alive, as were her first and second. I couldn't make head nor tail of the local vicar's agreement to the ceremony either, but there you go Hmm

Puzzledandpissedoff · 01/09/2016 23:19

She's in England she'll have that anyway

Surely not necessarily? If OP went ahead with an Islamic marriage and that marriage failed, I wonder if there'd be pressure for things to be decided by a sharia court instead?

RunningLulu · 01/09/2016 23:31

I've seen some really ignorant emails here. Most Muslims in the UK, contrary to what the Daily Mail reports, have at least 2 wedding ceremonies.

You have the Islamic wedding which is just a public avowal that everything is being done with the bride and groom's consent. The bride is given gold, money, and other gifts by the groom's family (and vice versa). It's usually followed by some kind of evening reception.

The 2nd ceremony is the Registry itself. Bride gets the chance to wear a big white dress, and have the wedding she actually wants lol. Again bride and groom get gifts & it's usually followed by a huge dinner because Muslims in general love to eat.

Most Muslims may have a third 'customary' wedding ceremony too , and a henna night, and a hen/stag do.

RunningLulu · 01/09/2016 23:35

It usually takes a couple of weeks to finish up all the different ceremonies. The registry is legal by UK law. The Islamic marriage, though often the simplest, is the religious undertaking and you don't have to convert. My brother (Hindu) didn't convert when marrying sil (an Ismaili Muslim) and neither did my cousin (marrying a Wahabi rich boy who gave all of her bridesmaids 3 carat diamond earrings!).

CakeForBreakfast · 01/09/2016 23:37

The ceremony would be islamically illegal. It can only be performed if (at least) the groom is Muslim.

Your dp was Christened. So he would need to convert. This could be your reason to refuse. It would be disrespectful to his mums religion to hoodwink the imam and just pretend right?

As for circumcision, my DH said a big fat no to it, for him and little uns. My mum checked at the mosque. It's not actually compulsory. In Judaism it is, but not Islam. Anyway, that one you shouldnt have to justify! It's no ones business but baby's mum and dad!

Your dp seems to be feeling bad for his mum, which is fine, but he still needs a little kicking into touch about where his loyalties need to ultimately fall.

PickAChew · 01/09/2016 23:44

marvik a "blessing" is a bit different from having a wedding according to a faith your DH doesn't even believe in and bits lopped of your baby's genitals inthe name of said religion.

PickAChew · 02/09/2016 00:04

People do religious shite they don't believe in all the time. I'm not saying they should, but the sanctimony on the thread would have you believe it has never happened anywhere before.

I happen to feel the same about church weddings (and funerals, if it comes to that) where the participants (living or dead, as appropriate) don't believe.

MiscellaneousAssortment · 02/09/2016 00:13

Sorry I was one of the ones who focused on the risk of being pushed into a religious circumcism.

But I can't help but pick up on something that another poster wrote:

"why would an imam do it? what medical qualifications would they have? Also they have costs, insurance, etc, to pay, so why would they do it for free"

They dont have medical training, and it's not done via insurance and registering etc. It's not seen as a medical operation or procedure.

It tends to be done for a relatively small amount of money (100-200£), and the Imam usually attends a private residence and does a brief ceremony for the family and circumcises the male baby, or it can be in a place of worship.

The NHS used to do circumcism 'on request' a couple of decades ago, but now have a strong policy of refusal due to the increasing numbers and changing cultural norms which means it's now a divisive and of course, unnecessary procedure that isn't tolerated in the same way.

I asked about it when I was pregnant, at a consultants appointment, as my stbxh was pressuring me. I was shut down pretty damn quick and only after found out what a contentious societal issue it was, (beyond my own personal feelings on the matter), having never come across it personally before. It's a shame they didn't discuss it properly and explain why they don't do it, risks, harm to the baby etc etc. As my (very much non-d) husband would have listened to someone in a position of authority more than just from me.

Anyway, I then did alot of research around that time, talked to a couple of Imans, and others in communities where it's more accepted, and of course the consultant I mentioned previously as well as private hospitals that offer it under general anaesthetic (£6k+ at the Portland )

I got the most useful insight via the doc I mentioned earlier, who has made it his mission to help when things go wrong, which is very needed as in some communities & families, people are reluctant to go through official channels due to the contentiousness of having it done, and the fear of being judged.

So a doctor who will come straight round to people's houses at all hours is such a good thing. He teaches aftercare, corrects dressings, finishes the job of its not complete, and stitches up where he can. He also he told me he's had to call ambulances and accompany the baby & family to hospital. He gives emergency advice via phone and Skype, for example, about where to press and how hard if a major blood vessel has been cut. He also explained that only a&e departments with an in house emergency paed would have the knowledge to intervene in a botched circumcision, which is a scary thought, as many hospitals don't have this.

But as this procedure isn't performed regularly by NHS doctors anymore, docs just don't get the experience.

At the moment, it's the worst of both worlds in the UK, with many baby boys still being circumcised, outside the healthcare service, yet with doctors and medics within our healthcare service not doing this procedure, there isn't the body of practical knowledge that is needed to help in an emergency.

In that respect, it's a bit like giving birth to babies in difficult positions, where less and less midwives/ docs have direct experience of natural births, so become less and less willing to attend without swift intervention... Eg breech plus back to back.

Obviously, I heard all the horror stories about when things go wrong.
The majority of times, it goes absolutely fine and the Imam's have expertise born of practice and experience. But .... And but.... the risks, not good at all.

Italiangreyhound · 02/09/2016 00:25

CakeForBreakfast re "Your dp was Christened. So he would need to convert. This could be your reason to refuse. It would be disrespectful to his mums religion to hoodwink the imam and just pretend right?"

I think the OP can refuse because she does not agree, not because any other (as yet unidentified and unrelated-to-her person ) would be offended!

She should refuse, as she wants to refuse, and to me really that is a very bad reason to give for her refusal!

After all, what is to say if she said this to her dp, that he might not say something like 'Oh if that is your only reason for refusing I will officially covert just to keep everyone happy! Then we can have the ceremony my dear mum wants, the officiant will not be offended and so all will be well. Except the OP does not want this! Not because it would be hoodwinking or offending anyone but because she does not agree to it!

Just to say too that not all Jews circumcise males, I believe for liberal Jews it is a choice.

Runninglulu I would certainly hope all Muslims have the legal marriage, but sadly this has not always been the case.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8493660.stm

It was also the case with Jerry Hall who married Mick Jagger on Bali (I think in a beautiful village I visited many, many years ago) in a Hindu ceremony that was not a legal marriage ceremony. A shock for her to find years later (during 'divorce' proceedings) that they were not legally married at all!

www.theguardian.com/world/1999/jan/19/5

I know this is not the case at all for the OP, who plans a civil marriage, so I am not trying to derail. Just stating that sometimes things cannot always go according to plan when people are not aware of the law how it applies to their case!

(Puzzle was it maybe just a blessing??)

RunningLulu · 02/09/2016 00:29

Some people will take boys back to their native countries & pay medical professionals there to do it alongside other ceremonies (head shaving etc).

I personally think circumcision is something that should be offered as a paid service on the NHS (although I fundamentally disagree with the practice but I'm a Hindu so what do I know). It's not the same as FGM, nobody is castrating them, and provided families accepted full liability for the procedure (and consequences) then it'd probably be a darn sight safer too.

DontMindMe1 · 02/09/2016 00:34

OP, the best way (in my experience) is to stand firm with both of them and refuse to engage in any 'discussion' manipulation.

that she doesn’t ask anything of us and this will make her happy
this is a classic emotional manipulation line. basically, all that our parents 'suffered' as a result of their decisions/choices...well we should recognize that and 'put it right' by doing 'this one small/simple thing'.

Only it's never a 'small/simple' thing - because it forces us to compromise our own values and integrity. You don't need to believe in a god to have values, morals and personal integrity. And this is the only 'reason' you need.

The fact that they expect you to go through a charade and think there's nothing wrong with it speaks volumes about their values and personal integrity.

norabattyapparently · 02/09/2016 00:34

Id rather shit in my hands and clap whilst having hot pins stuck in my eyes. Do not back down OP

Italiangreyhound · 02/09/2016 00:34

Misscelanrous what a useful post. I am sure the OP is very against circumcision but that post bring it all into sharp relief. I also found this, below, OP which may be useful. I am hoping you may not need to discuss this with your future MIL at any length, or your dp, but if you do need to discuss it, knowing the facts will be very helpful.

www.netmums.com/coffeehouse/home-life-8/faith-religion-97/323721-circumcision-all.html

RunningLulu · 02/09/2016 00:38

Bali is probably like the UK in that you can only have a legally binding wedding for 1 religion. India, surprisingly, is more open here as it's a secular country - so people get the major public holidays for all faiths, and nobody pays a religious premium for wedding ceremonies because everybody has to pay the same fee lol

I'm aware that some Muslims only have the Islamic wedding, and that is definitely something to be addressed, but the majority don't. Most of my friends are Muslims & so I've been to hundreds of weddings in my life and all of them have had the civil ceremony and the Islamic ceremony. Of course people view the importance of each differently - some families make a bigger deal out of one than the other (mostly Registry because that's when the girl often gets her fairytale wedding), but to minimize all Muslim marriages for a relatively small amount of cases is a bit prejudicial.

Italiangreyhound · 02/09/2016 00:39

Runninglou re "nobody is castrating them", Not intentionally but it does happen accidentally. Why risk it for something that is not medically necessary.

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