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AIBU?

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Original poster

To wish Theresa May would just say sod it we're staying in the EU because ...

255 replies

Topanga1 · 29/08/2016 09:59

It's her job to act in the best interest of our country.

We NEED access to the single market and won't get that without free movement of people.

The peace process in N Ireland will be in jeopardy if we erect a border between them and Ireland. It's too high a price to pay.

The referendum was advisory so PM May and the majority of MPs who were pro-remain need to say 'thanks for the advice but we can't deliver what you wanted without wrecking our country so we're staying'

OP posts:
LoveInTokyo · 30/08/2016 21:51

And please don't refer me to the leave campaign or tabloid media of the benefits of Brexit, because the majority of these magic benefits have already been debunked as being complete horseshit.

Justanotherlurker · 30/08/2016 21:52

Just read this thread and it reminded me of this thread, not so much about labour, but the thought process around ignoring concerns

www.ibtimes.co.uk/labour-risk-completely-losing-working-class-vote-1578752

Bettersleepoutdoors · 30/08/2016 22:01

I am a little confused now because of the posts I see asking why Brexiters voted as such and what they expect to happen now? What does Brexit mean? As though the concept and consequences have never been explained or understood. As though it has no meaning.
But it clearly does have meaning or Remainers wouldn't be so worried and pissed off.

revealall · 30/08/2016 22:03

Well the main benefit and the one I suspect drove most of the Leave voters is that " we" get back a say over our politics and policies.

Everything else we have and that will change such as trade, immigration etc can all be negotiated the same as it is with every other country in the world. Of course interest rates, shares etc will go up and down but it's up to us what happens next.
Can I point out that plenty of countries aren't the EU and some are doing great and some less so. Can't see why the EU is such a big deal unless you are a bit poor like Greece, Poland , Scotland etc.

samsam123 · 30/08/2016 22:04

better off leaving- i cant believe you are STILL going on about this, the sooner we leave the better

Jonso · 30/08/2016 22:05

Tokyo- I and other posters have addressed your concerns and you have not listened or reflected on anything that has been said. The people voted to leave the european union as an organisation. I am sure I have saod this to you before. If you are angry that your french boyfriend has used it as an excuse not to move in with you- it's your relationship that needs addressing.

Bettersleepoutdoors · 30/08/2016 22:08

revealall well yes, that is what I thought.
So why all the questions? iyswim.

LoveInTokyo · 30/08/2016 22:10

Well the main benefit and the one I suspect drove most of the Leave voters is that " we" get back a say over our politics and policies.

Right... OK. But what does that actually mean?

The EU only has competence in a limited number of areas. Pretty much everything else is decided here in the UK, by our elected politicians.

But the areas of our law and policy where the EU currently has competence are the sort of areas where we are never going to be able to do exactly what we want. If we go for a "soft Brexit" to retain access to the single market, we will still have to comply with EU law in most of these areas, but we will no longer have a say in making that law. We will have less of a say, not more.

If we go for more of a "hard Brexit", then I think we will have bigger things to worry about than whether regulations most of us aren't even aware of are drafted in Brussels or in Whitehall. (We'll be more worried about our economy.) But even in a "hard Brexit" scenario, people who want to sell their products into the EU will still have to comply with EU product requirements, and EU competition law, and all manner of other things which we will no longer have any say in.

So what is the point? Do you really believe that British people are going to regain control of anything? Really?

LoveInTokyo · 30/08/2016 22:11

If you are angry that your french boyfriend has used it as an excuse not to move in with you- it's your relationship that needs addressing.

Our relationship is just fine, but thanks for your concern. But if you could tell me what we get in return for this massive turd you leave voters have just dropped in our lives, that would be great. And please don't say we're going to "take back control".

Jonso · 30/08/2016 22:17

And no one has ever answered my question- if it is great why do so many people in so many EU countries want to leave?
Remain is the conformist vote- I know, I was one of them. But as I have delved deeper for answers myself I have become more confident- I don't want to be part of a superstate- it actually terrifies me that remainers have accepted and still passionate about being ruled by such a shady and undemocratic institution. One that -incidentally- labour was against until the mid eighties, when Kinnock did a u turn and found a very cushy place for himself and Mrs Kinnock. Blair wanted the euro- what a disaster that would have been!! Personally, Tony Benn always made sense to me- he never liked the idea of an EU that was so far removed from the people.

Bettersleepoutdoors · 30/08/2016 22:18

"Right... OK. But what does that actually mean?"

I am not sure why it is difficult to understand this tbh Love

What does it actually mean to remain and keep some governance from Europe? What would be good about that? the free movement?
so all the arguments which have been explained already are of no consequence when compared to the benefits to you and your boyfirend's personal arrangements?
Surely there are benefits and risks on both sides.

LoveInTokyo · 30/08/2016 22:22

And no one has ever answered my question- if it is great why do so many people in so many EU countries want to leave?

Well there are right-wing reactionary bigots in every country. And there are national governments in every country which - to a greater or lesser extent - like to use the EU as scapegoat on which to blame their own failings. And there are newspapers and media outlets in every country owned by powerful people who have their own reasons for disliking the EU and see fit to influence their readership accordingly. And yes, there are some countries in the EU which have suffered from being part of the single currency and high unemployment. (Crucially, we are not one of those countries and have benefited far more than most from our membership. Thanks to the opt-outs we managed to secure, we had a better deal than every other member state, which is why they all think we've lost the plot.)

Take your pick.

No one is saying the EU is perfect. But we had a far better chance of making it work for us from within. Now we've just lost all our influence.

LoveInTokyo · 30/08/2016 22:24

Bettersleep, you do understand that it will not be possible to keep access to the single market without having free movement and complying with the majority of EU law, don't you? It's what literally everyone who knows a thing about the subject is saying, and it's not just scaremongering. And if you're advocating leaving the single market, do you have any idea what that is going to do to the economy?

You seem to think we can have our cake and eat it, and we just can't.

Jonso · 30/08/2016 22:25

Tokyo, we, as in the UK, voted to leave. It's the governments job to implement that. I imagine they will negotiate with the elected heads of state- isn't it interesting that they have been more reasonable than the unelected ones? and then trigger article 50. But I would like to ask you again, and again, what industry is your boyfriend in that has stopped recruiting from the EU? Because I don't believe the only possible job a French person can now get in the UK is in a bar.

Blue4ever · 30/08/2016 22:27

I am a remain voter but right now I wish that someone would grow a bleeding spine and start the leave process. Just get on with it and stop the insecurity, doubts, sitting on the fence business.

Jonso · 30/08/2016 22:30

'Well, there are right wing reactionary bigots in every country'

And there we have it. There is a strong left wing argument against the EU, one that people have bothered to spell out to you yet you just stick to the script. You would make a fantastic Labour MP.

Bettersleepoutdoors · 30/08/2016 22:35

Lovein Tokyo
Yes, I believe my understanding of the situation is pretty robust, thank you.

But good on you for knowing"literally everyone who knows a thing about the subject"

Jonso · 30/08/2016 22:35

Better sleep - Better off not engaging. Let her rant, tell you what you think and then move on.
All those old Labour hard left MPs who came out for Brexit- apparently they are nasty right wing reactionaries- unlike Tokyo and her French boyfriend, who are obviously tolerant and open minded people.

LoveInTokyo · 30/08/2016 22:36

Jonso, I don't feel comfortable spelling it out on here, but it is something very specialist, with only a limited number of employers. Prior to the referendum he thought he had a good chance of getting a decent job with one of those employers. Now they have stopped recruiting and are considering pulling out of the UK. If I say what industry it is, it wouldn't take very much detective work to figure out which employer I am talking about. Sorry.

I realise that we voted to leave. Believe me, I do realise that. But I believe the process was deeply flawed and voters were misled as to what we could expect from life outside the EU. It sounds simplistic, but we can either "take back control" or we can "still have a functioning economy". We can't have both. I just feel incredibly upset that such an important decision was taken following such a shitty campaign, and so many people's lives have been turned upside down as a result. I don't believe Brexit will bring any of the benefits people are hoping for, and the whole thing will have been a pointless, damaging, expensive lesson in "how not to do democracy".

Jonso · 30/08/2016 22:41

I am sorry you feel like that Tokyo, and I guess I will just have to take your word that your boyfriend can no longer move here to live with you. Hopefully, things will be better than you imagine.

Dapplegrey2 · 30/08/2016 22:42

There has been much made of the theory that people voted leave as a protest as they felt they weren't being listened to.
Therefore, Tokyo and other Remainers on this thread, do you think if David Cameron and the majority of the Tory cabinet had encouraged the populace to vote leave, then many more would have voted remain as a protest?

Bettersleepoutdoors · 30/08/2016 22:43

Well it has been difficult for you LoveinTokyo that is clear. I am sorry that you are having a tough time.
But that doesn't mean it was the wrong decision, neither does it mean that the Leave voters are right wing reactionaries.

LoveInTokyo · 30/08/2016 22:43

I will just have to move there, I guess. At least it will give me a route to dual citizenship.

NameChanger22 · 30/08/2016 22:43

I am a remain voter and I was upset and stressed by the result. The leave voters will have their time to be upset about it in due course.

The government rarely does what the people want, so why is this a special case? I don't care nearly as much about democracy as I do about eating. Leaving the EU will be a disaster for the UK.

LoveInTokyo · 30/08/2016 22:45

Bettersleep, if any of these benefits do materialise, and if we end up better off out than in, then I will be happy to admit that I was wrong. But the odds are very firmly stacked against us in that respect. It's not exactly comforting that David Davis - who has been put in charge of Brexit - has no idea how the EU actually works. God help us.