To think co-sleeping with toddlers is madness?

[Grapejuiceforgrownups]

We have a 16m old, recently went on a week long holiday with friends and their 19m old. Our toddler naps 12-2 or thereabouts, she had some naps in car or buggy if we were out and about but prefer her to nap in cot where possible. She sleeps 7-7ish, went to bed later on some nights as we were on hols. We have a 10 min long bedtime routine and she usually falls asleep within 5 mins of going in cot, if she cries we take her out again, settle her then put her back but this is rare. On the week long holiday she woke two of the nights in the night, took 5 min of settling. Other 5 nights she slept through.

Friends' DS won't sleep unless there is a parent with him so one of them has to lie down and either sleep or pretend to be asleep for up to an hour to get him to have a nap. At bedtime they do the same. Every night at about 10pm he would be up again screaming, I'm guessing because he would wake and get upset that the parent he fell asleep with was gone, and he would usually come into the lounge with us and fall asleep in his mum's arms. He won't sleep in a cot so they have to put the mattress on the floor surrounded by cushions. When they go to bed he sleeps between them and kicks all night when he is asleep, wakes up hourly and fusses and needs soothing, so basically neither of them get any sleep. During the day he was grumpy and tired, rubbing his eyes a lot. No set bedtime (usually goes to bed with them at 9ish at home they said), no set nap times, no routine that I could see. He's not BF since 1 year.

I get why you would co-sleep with a little baby, we did occasionally when ours was little and we did everything baby led for the first 4 months before gently adding a night time routine. She was in a bednest until 6m then cot in her own room. We've never done CIO, I don't have a problem with controlled crying if done gently but it wasn't for us. We rocked or cuddled to sleep until 8m then used pick up put down method to teach her to self settle.

I'm asking in the spirit of genuine curiosity rather than hoiking up my judgey pants, but it seemed so mad to me that they were still at newborn levels of exhaustion when he is 1.5 years old, I genuinely want to know what the benefits are of extended co-sleeping and why people do it? Am I missing a trick??

From the ages of 1-2 our DD was pretty easy, going in her cot happily at 7.30 then waking up at 6 ish. Since putting her in a toddler bed at age 2 (we had to as she was climbing out of cot), she appears in our bed most nights and will go apeshit psycho crazy if you try to move her back. She snuggles in and goes to sleep in our bed so we let her stay. I can't get worked up about it to be honest, I doubt she'll still be doing it when she's at school.

Well doesn't it wake your OH up if your baby/toddler cries in the night? Even if you're the one getting up to settle them?

Strangely no, it doesn't. I turn off the monitor's sound as soon as it wakes me up.
When DH is the one "doing" the night, he wakes up and i sleep through. Is it just us?? We discovered this when we had a newborn, that when you know someone else is on-call then you don't wake up at every noise (I am talking 1-2 mins).
We ask each other in the morning if the children slept through.

The problem is, is that you will sound judgey if you ask questions like this. They're doing it because the alternative is worse - that's why we all do things as parents isn't it?

You're really lucky that PUPD worked for you - what would you have done if it didn't do you think?

Living you must have a bigger house than us, DD's room is right next to us so both of us wake as soon as she cries. Although I think both of us have pretended to be asleep on occasion in the hope that the other will go and sort her out

DP did sleep through it the other night though, waking up, beaming and saying "Didn't DD do well last night! She only woke once!" when actually it had been three times I got a lie in though.

DC1 slept through from 6 weeks with little help and I was just like you, judging other people's parenting thinking they were doing it all wrong. Then I had DC2 and he needed rocking and carrying around for hours multiple times a night. He didn't sleep through until he has 2.5 and still gets up occasionally now. Same parents, same parenting.
I won't be having a 3rd DC.

I have fairly limited sympathy for those who "can't" do night wakings because they're working outside the home though

I don't disagree in principle. We worked out a fair deal, where I would do most nights, but if it was getting too much I could always wake DH up around 4am so I could at least sleep for the rest of the night and he would take over. I would get more sleep than him in the morning and in the weekends. And no he doesn't wake me up when he gets up, lucky me.

I've done both staying at home and working outside the home and I get more down time (and more coffee) at work

Haha yes, I agree. But no opportunity for a lunchtime nap!

I thought similar with my first 3dc. I thought the fact they were such brilliant to sleepers (all slept through by 12 weeks 7-7 with a dream feed at 11 and had a two hour nap everyday) was down to my fantastic parenting skills. Mwaahhh hahahahahaha. Then dc4 came along and I realised that it was fuck all to do with me and everything to do with luck! We co sleep whenever he wants because we are on our knees with tiredness otherwise and and frequently fall asleep in our dinner.

My family are like you. They regularly make concerned noises about whether having DS sleep with us when necessary is really good for any of us blah blah blah. And you know what, I know that it is. Because after more than five years of broken sleep, having him turn up at 4 in the morning 4 nights a week and just having to turn over to go back to sleep is a blessing. Quite often, one of us goes and sleeps in his bed so that we can all sleep.

What it comes down to is that you do what you have to do. I think there's this idea that if you are "letting" your child sleep in your bed it's because you are weak or a bad parent or just don't know how to create boundaries. When in reality, its a decision you've taken based on what works best for you and your child in terms of security and sufficient sleep.

And I speak as someone whose second child slept through regularly from the age of about 3 months and who, while she still needs to be cuddled to sleep, is usually passed out within 10 minutes of lights out and blissfully quiet for the next 11 or 12 hours. So I don't think parenting choices have a lot to do with any of this.

I have always been able to fall asleep quickly and easily. As has my dad. My mum on the other hand struggled to sleep her whole life and suffered massively from insomnia. I suspect that in 50 years research will show us that how babies sleep is at least partially a genetic/ in built thing that may be impacted by parenting techniques but only within certain parameters.

Laura their room is next to us as well! I guess we are just heavy sleepers.

I have one good sleeper and one dreadful sleeper. Fortunately the good sleeper came first so I could be all smug and feel like I'd conquered the world of parenting with my well-behaved baby.

Then came DS2 who slept like a bat on cocaine, and 5 years later I have accepted that, actually, some babies just don't sleep. Ever. And no exaggeration, I can count on one hand the night's he's slept through. And when you're on the brink of absolute madness from lack of sleep you do what you need to do to survive. If that means co-sleeping, crack on. If it means sleeping in their beds, crack on. If it means sending them to MIL's house overnight and going to bed at 6pm once a month just so you can survive, crack right on.

Not one person, not a single one has ever asked me "did you co-sleep" as an adult. Not when I went to Uni interviews, not at job interviews, not even when I met DH. Because it just doesn't matter. It's like potty training or when you learned to walk; it all happens differently and nobody gives a shit once it's done. All this hoo-ha over who does what at bedtime; who gives a shit so long as you've had enough sleep to be a fully-functioning parent? And if you're friends with people who do co-sleep, instead of judging them, ask them if you can help. Offer to babysit for a few hours so they can nap, take the baby for a play at the park so they can have an early night. Don't judge them. Sleep deprivation is classed as torture for good reason.

We co sleep with 2.5yr old ds. Most of the time he starts off in his own bed then comes into us at some point in the night. If we didn't let him in with us he would get into dd's bed (can't get to ds1 as he's in the top bunk!) and he wakes his brother and sister. I would rather have him in with us than disrupting the other dcs sleep.

I never co slept with either of my DCs with the exception of early newborn days and illness. Having grown up in a house where my younger DSis was a royal PITA when it came to sleep and having seen my DM almost have a breakdown from years of broken or lack of sleep, I was adamant that I did not want to do the same. So I was conscious of this from day 1 with both DCs and started routines and sleep habits early. I don't believe that it's always just good lucks I think good sleep habits require an effort early on.

I need sleep, I'm a mess without it. I also need some downtime and physical space especially when they were babies and toddlers. I needed the space to recharge in order to be a good mum the next day.

Meh, you do what you need to do. I actually enjoyed co-sleeping. I'd love them to want to sleep with me now but they are too big and warm. Looking back I probably hated it some nights but miss it now.

DS2 who slept like a bat on cocaine
sorry sorry sorry but this made me laugh so hard

To be fair, it doesn't sound like co sleeping is working out very well for this child either if he is up in the night several times and kicking and thrashing. Surely he would be doing the same thing in his own cot/bed? Because he's naturally not a happy sleeper?

Depends if they've ever tried him sleeping alone. My DD now 4 has never liked to sleep in the same bed as anyone else, thrashes about and wakes multiple times. Out like a light in her own space. Kids are weird. But yeah, co sleeping is definitely not for every child or every parent!

FarAwayHills people who have wakeful children also need sleep. I know I certainly do, and it can be difficult to cope with my wakeful 7 month old so I end up bed sharing a lot of the time. That's my way of coping. I also have had a bedtime routine in place since he was a couple of months old, which has him generally going off to sleep really well at 6pm each night. Sometimes being cuddled sometimes falling asleep on his own. But after a few hours the frequent wakenings come.

This attitude of it being something you did or didn't do in terms of healthy sleep habits is actually the thing that makes parents of difficult sleepers tear their hair out. Constantly questioning what they are doing, whether they could be doing things differently, whether they should be trying sleep training even though that goes against our instincts.

It's not a choice to have difficult sleeper, and to imply that these parents need less sleep than other parents is inaccurate, trust me!

So I was conscious of this from day 1 with both DCs and started routines and sleep habits early. I don't believe that it's always just good lucks I think good sleep habits require an effort early on.

So you're basically saying that parents whose DC don't sleep well aren't making enough of an effort. Don't you know anyone in RL whose kids sleep badly? Do you really think they're all just too lazy to do something about it?
There just isn't a simple solution to improving children's sleep. Count yourself lucky that your DC slept well (and no, I won't believe it's all down to your routine... Which I bet is something no sleep-deprived parent has ever tried, like bath bottle book bed, right?)

Well said scrumptious

Absolutely scrumptious.

I was the playgroup mother who thought people who's children didn't sleep needed to borrow my (whispers) Gina ford book and recognise sleep cues. I was smug fuck. Even though I didn't actually say it to anyone.

I am smug fuck no more. It totally depends on the child and its reading skills.

I don't think it only depends on your child; we all have our own sleep patterns too. Co-sleeping meant I slept very lightly but for 6 or 7 hours at a stretch. I soon worked out I could function quite well like that. However being woken from a deep sleep - even if it only happened once - would half destroy me. You may be different. It doesn't make me right and it doesn't make you right.

OP?!? Think this is the point where you come back and realise YABU.

You are lucky, that's all.

Maybe the op had a bad night and has been trying to nap all day

Reads like a stealth boast tbh, OP. And you sound like you are literally wearing a Judge's pants.

You've outlined the reasons you don't think it's a good idea, so you obviously don't think you are 'missing a trick'.

You do what you do. They do what they do.

Tiddly om Pom Pom

Your clearly quite better parent, OP.

You excel at having a baby/toddler/ child who sleeps well and self settles.

I'll be back shortly with a big medal for you...