To think co-sleeping with toddlers is madness?

[Grapejuiceforgrownups]

We have a 16m old, recently went on a week long holiday with friends and their 19m old. Our toddler naps 12-2 or thereabouts, she had some naps in car or buggy if we were out and about but prefer her to nap in cot where possible. She sleeps 7-7ish, went to bed later on some nights as we were on hols. We have a 10 min long bedtime routine and she usually falls asleep within 5 mins of going in cot, if she cries we take her out again, settle her then put her back but this is rare. On the week long holiday she woke two of the nights in the night, took 5 min of settling. Other 5 nights she slept through.

Friends' DS won't sleep unless there is a parent with him so one of them has to lie down and either sleep or pretend to be asleep for up to an hour to get him to have a nap. At bedtime they do the same. Every night at about 10pm he would be up again screaming, I'm guessing because he would wake and get upset that the parent he fell asleep with was gone, and he would usually come into the lounge with us and fall asleep in his mum's arms. He won't sleep in a cot so they have to put the mattress on the floor surrounded by cushions. When they go to bed he sleeps between them and kicks all night when he is asleep, wakes up hourly and fusses and needs soothing, so basically neither of them get any sleep. During the day he was grumpy and tired, rubbing his eyes a lot. No set bedtime (usually goes to bed with them at 9ish at home they said), no set nap times, no routine that I could see. He's not BF since 1 year.

I get why you would co-sleep with a little baby, we did occasionally when ours was little and we did everything baby led for the first 4 months before gently adding a night time routine. She was in a bednest until 6m then cot in her own room. We've never done CIO, I don't have a problem with controlled crying if done gently but it wasn't for us. We rocked or cuddled to sleep until 8m then used pick up put down method to teach her to self settle.

I'm asking in the spirit of genuine curiosity rather than hoiking up my judgey pants, but it seemed so mad to me that they were still at newborn levels of exhaustion when he is 1.5 years old, I genuinely want to know what the benefits are of extended co-sleeping and why people do it? Am I missing a trick??

Lord, these threads bring out the cattiness and judgement from both sides. People who think those who sleep train are cruel and people who think co sleeping is below them. Just do what you need to do to get by.

Our DD is 2.1 and goes to sleep well with a routine in her own room and bed about 7 but always ends up in with us in the middle of the bed between about 2 and 4. We've tried everything and now just let it happen for a quiet life. I think most people's sleep routines with toddlers are as a result of whatever gets everyone some Kip. I know you're saying you're not judging but it feels a bit judgey!

What a sanctimonious talk. Count your blessings and don't judge the others' parenting methods.
I co-slept with both of mine, long into toddlerhood, and after, and if I had another child, would do it again.

dD has nearly always been a good sleeper (except when she was little and I was starving her) and when I went back to work and put her in nursery. Then she started waking in the wee hours and howling. I was so tired and stressed and looking back she was clearly traumatised by being left. I wish now that I had just taken her into bed with me and comforted her, but instead I spent the night going in and out trying to settle her. I found very little help from health visitor etc, they really took the attitude that I needed to be 'firm' and not let the child develop 'bad habits'. I think that there are times when co-sleeping is probably helpful.

Ah OP, so if only your friend adopted your perfect parenting all would be well and their DC would magically start sleeping through the night?

YAB massively U, and judgemental, and sanctimonious. FFS, try walking a mile in someone else's shoes.

DS1 was a fabulous sleeper until 18 months (self settled, consistently slept through etc). Then it all went to pot. He settles ok but is prone to night waking. We co-sleep part of the night because we all get more sleep that way and we find sleep necessary when working full time/pregnant/dealing with a newborn. If you have the magic secret to stop toddlers waking in the night please do tell.

All of mine have slept with me until the next one was born. It felt like the most natural thing to do whilst they were tiny. They all transitioned to their own beds with dh settling them instead. dc4 (2.5 yrs) is about to go into her own room soon, I am dreading it - she's my last. We have, no doubt, had far less sleep than if they'd slept in their own cots from day one, but that wasn't a priority for us so it didn't really matter. My main priority was the dc's sleep and being able to feed/comfort them asap so they didn't wake the others up.

Your whole post comes across as judgemental op.

Some people co-sleep with toddlers because they have awful sleepers. My son is one of them, he has been an awful sleeper since the day he was born and is still the same at nearly 3 years of age. I co-sleep with him because a) it's easier and b)it really does not bother me. I assume he won't still want to co-sleep when he is 16 and right now it works for is.

I'll do whatever is required as needed. The DCs have a bedtime and go to bed on their own, but sometimes they'll wake and sneak in with us. Last night was an unusual one as the 3 yo is in a phase of dropping his naps and has recently had nightmares making him scared of the dark. Late yesterday afternoon, he crashed out for a nap. Waking his is pretty much impossible at that point, so he ended up being very pleasantly lively until he was tired enough to sleep at 1am. DH is away so he shared with me as it was easier than putting him in with his DB. They're currently sharing a bed as DS2 wants the company in the dark. DS1 snuck in and joined us at some point. Some nights it's like musical beds as we'll sometimes swap to their beds when they've settled (they're bed hogs!). Sometimes, well see in the morning on the beds we first went to sleep in.

At least DS1 sleeps in a bed these days. He spent about a year making "nests" around the room at one point.

It's definitely doing what we can to give everyone as much sleep as possible!

As PP's have said unless you have been through extreme sleep deprivation for prolonged periods of times you have no idea about the desperation it breeds.

I have tried to put in place all of the advice (mostly unsolicited but never mind) and nothing worked- what works for one doesn't work for another. I can bet any money, I've tried your sodding routine and it has had NO effect on my DD.

I wouldn't be so smug if I were you.

My DC2 is just like you describe your 16 month old. Easy going, great routine, great sleeper.

My DC1 was just like your friend's. until she was 3.5.

Parented much the same. I wouldn't be so judgey lest it comes back to bite you with future DC. Children are all different. Co-sleeping with a toddler is not my idea of fun but when it's the only way to get any sleep you just do what you have to. Perhaps they could do with a better routine at the start of the evening, but you really can't have any idea what it's like at home for them when judging based on how their kid is when out of his usual environment.

I have 3 DC. 1St bottle fed and never coslept 2ND breast fed but never Co slept. 3rd breastfed and coslept because quite frankly it was the only way I could function. Dh worked do needed his sleep!

Well, I don't think you can make a toddler co-sleep if they don't want to.

My daughter is 14 months, many instances of co-sleeping when she was tiny but it became apparently quickly enough that she likes her own space to sleep, be it her cot, the push chair, car seat, travel cot etc. Wasn't anything I did, it's just her personality. Same way some babies/toddlers love to held when asleep.

Ds2 desperately wanted to co-sleep. I was happy to - in principle - but the reality was that he clamp himself to my head all night (think monkey on stick) and I couldn't move at all. So then we had a 4 year battle to get him to sleep through in his own bed. And the sleep training/ nap routine I'd perfected (hah) w ds1 didn't work on him.

Maybe your friend's ds would benefit from your approach but thinking you have all the answers with no. 1 is also a common pitfall

OP since you guys get so much sleep I hope you took your friends DC off their hands in the early morning a few times on the holiday so that they could have a lie in and catch up a bit?

I do think most people just do whatever gets them the best nights sleep.

We have shared a bed on many nights but I didn't get much sleep, too hot, too uncomfortable and too worried, it isn't really a safe option for us as DH has severe night terrors, I have the bruises to prove it!

Dsis has uncontrolled epilepsy so she cannot bed share safely either. It was a major struggle in the early days as both her DC only wanted to sleep on her. However she has persevered and now has two brilliant sleepers.

You know when you read the title and immediately your brain warns you not to read it, and then read it anyway despite knowing that OP is going to be a sanctimonious git. ....

Yeah that

Generally I think parents do what they can to get some sleep. So your friends are co-sleeping with their toddler because the alternative is that they all get even less sleep.

If I was in their position I would probably have felt self-conscious about our difficult sleeping habits especially compared to your model daughter and worried that you would have judged us - which you obviously have!

In the meantime hope you enjoy all the sleep you're getting and the rest of us will carry on doing what we can and drinking lots of caffeine

Ds slept fine in his crib until he was 7 months. I was back in work on the Monday and the Friday before he refused to sleep in the crib. Howled. Not like him at all, so he slept in with us. Next night we were in a B&B, same thing, couldn't keep the other guests awake so he slept in with us. The Sunday night I just needed to sleep, so he slept in with us.

That was over two years ago and he's still sleeping with us. Thankfully he sleeps quite well. We're hoping to get him in his own room after I've finally had the operation I've been waiting months for - I'll need to sleep in what will be his bedroom while I'm recovering.

OP, We once went on holiday with people who were into the whole Gina Ford routine, child who only napped for two hours in a pitch black room in a cot and had to be back and in the same place for bedtime strictly at 7 and it ruined the holiday. We couldn't do anything that interfered with the holy routine. No lunch out, no dinner out - our dd1 slept anywhere and wasn't shackled to her need for a cot and blackout blinds. We couldn't believe anyone could put themselves through that!

Different strokes!

I'm somewhere in the middle of the two approaches to sleeping you describe OP. My daughter is a recent toddler and we cosleep. It's not madness at all.as she wakes up once in the middle of the night and once at dawn and I am right there to settle her back to sleep. Minimum disruption for everyone. Saying that, having done a lot of reading on this subject I do think that there are things you can do to encourage healthy sleep patterns eg bedtime routine, nap schedules, etc. I do plan my days around my daughter's naps as I know it'll be easier to get her to sleep at a certain time before she gets overtired, same for bedtime. I don't agree that cio or sleep training that involves any distressed uncomforted crying is necessary or kind to a baby. But i also read about parents who have to go to bed with their children and feel sorry for them- i stay with my daughter til.she goes to sleep but because i know when she'll be tired but not too tired it rarely takes more than 20 mins before she goes to sleep . Then i have an evening to myself but need to go to bed fairly early to cope with the wakeups. I feel every parent has to negotiate their own path through these issues, but it can be hard to find your way when clouded by sleep deprivation. I have given lots of advice to friends at times but ultimately i don't think it's helpful as babies and situations and parents are different and each family has to work things out for itself. If i have baby no. 2 I'm very interested to see if what works for us now continues to.

If I was you I'd be thanking my lucky stars (and yes it is luck rather than anything you have done) that you have a sleeper. If you don't have a sleeper quite frankly once you have peddled through all the shit advice and techniques (excluding the psychologically damaging ones) you do what ever you have to. At that age if someone had told me sacrificing a sheep at full moon and drinking its blood would work I'd have given it a shot. If it works for them great they have found a way to get some sleep. At 41/2 my DS has finally started sleeping through

Another YABU.

My 2.5yo DS still wakes every fucking night and gets into bed with one of us. Sometimes (and on holiday I would do it for a quiet life for my companions) I still lie with him to fall asleep. It's not often now but when he was 18mo-21mo I was probably co sleeping most of the time.

We have a brilliant routine and by-and-large he goes to bed no problem. But he wakes in the night or early morning and will not resettle without comfort (and yes, I have tried leaving him to cry, a gro clock and anything else you think might help).

I also have a 6mo (who has one night feed) and I work FT. And I would love to not have the exhaustion of not having slept for more than 3 hours straight for a month (a month ago DS1 slept through for 5 nights for the first time, it was amazing, but then he got a cold, and now it's gone ). But i take my sleep as I get it, which is mostly with toddler feet in my face.

OP, I totally agree with your post.

I've got friends who slept on a mattress at their child's side until they were 4!

Making a rod for your own back there, I think.

I never co-slept with either of mine, now 13 and 11. Maybe they were good sleepers because of that, or would have been regardless, but no, they never set foot in our bed, never left their bedroom between dusk and dawn. Selfishly, I needed that psychological break at night from them!