To wonder how attachment parents get some evening adult time?

[Ketchuponpizza]

I am a little crunchy, We have four kids and I carry my babies in a sling, cloth nappy, co sleep, breast feed on demand, etc. My DH is supportive of this, but after 7-8 months, he wants the manority of his evenings/bedroom back, and some time with his wife. Fair enough, we need time to be a couple. And so, he does sleep training. I hated it every time, so he used to send me outside with a glass of wine. If they wake up in the night, he offers them water, they have a cuddle, whilst he explains that it is night time, they look outside at the dark sky, check the other kids to see that they are asleep, and he puts them back to bed. Anytime from 4:30 onwards, I bring them into bed with me, and stick the little one on the boob. (We always wake up with at least one kid in bed with us on a morning. We don't mind, we are a cuddly family).

Thanks to him, our bedtime routine runs pretty smoothly. The odd hiccup/difficult evening, but hey, they are kids.

Recently, on another group, a young single first time mum, wrote that she was really struggling/tired with her 7 month old, asked for no -judgemental, non-negative comments. I wrote about my experience, and that now bedtime is pretty uncomplicated. My comments were deleted and I was given my first warning from admin, as they don't promote sleep training, because it can diminish the BF experience, and doesn't comply with 'gentle parenting'.

This is all news to me. If you don't give kids a bedtime, how will they ever go to bed as a toddler? How do they ever have time to be with their husbands? Or even to just do the housework? (What I end up doing most nights!!!)

I feel so sorry for that new mum, alone, and being told the only way is to co-sleep, despite her exhaustion and lack of help.

Never even thought about a 'uk' parenting style but having since moved away from the uk, there is definitely a difference here.
ketchup is right about the French approach. They have a concept of the rigid 'cadre' then a lot of freedom within that framework. They know where the boundaries are.,
Here in Sweden, physical punishment is (thankfully) looked on as being a terrible thing. Family bed sharing is very common indeed. Kids seems to be given a lot of freedom very young - on my walk today we saw a little gaggle of 5-6 year olds in the woods with no adult near. Kids start school much later with the emphasis before then on socialisation through play - really just learning how to play, share, eat together etc. I have to say it's an approach that seems to produce very well mannered kids with a lot of freedom. I've learned a lot since I moved here. I've also realised that my very big standard, average upbringing in the 70s/80s was very different to my Swedish husband's.

The Welsh education system is closely modelled on the Finnish one thank fuck.

Much of the U.K. Parenting style is thanks to the Victorians.

How so hecan't

They introduced:
Cots
Prams
Wet nurses (breastfeeding being so undignified)
Children being "seen but not heard"
Nannies
Limited interaction with parents
Excessive affection eg cuddles making a "rod for your own back"
Rigid routines

I like routine. Stops me going bats.

Sorry hecan't I meant the Welsh education system.
i went through the Welsh system. My ds did 3yrs then we moved to England, he's now done 2yrs in the English system. The only difference I've seen is in Wales they can start at 6 rather than 5

It is based on Victorian values. Children are considered separate to adults (upstairs/downstairs kind of mindset). Bedtime - for example - seems very important to (most) UK parents and having separate children's/adult time. This thread being a case in point!

I think the focus on having separate children's and adult's time/space means that we can tend towards expecting specific things aimed at children, which are completely child-centric and expecting things to be adapted to children, rather than children to adapt to the adult world. Many families even eat entirely separately adults/children and you'll usually find a special "child's menu" in most restaurants which are considered family-friendly. There is not much tolerance of children's normal behaviour in what is thought of as adult spheres. We don't expect to find children in "adult" situations such as in restaurants in the evening, or at the theatre, whereas in some other cultures it is more normal or there is more crossover, but children are expected to adhere to adult norms more of the time as well.

Childish behaviours are more tolerated within the children's sphere, and in fact particularly in this generation it's expected that within the "children's time" you're supposed to put a huge amount of energy and attention into them in a way that is, actually, quite draining and probably warrants the higher need for a break and some specified adult time, without the demands of children. There is a tendency to want to keep childhood as a special time where children are protected from the harsh realities of adult life and have many "experiences" which are special to them.

Attitudes have changed WRT discipline - most people frown on physical discipline these days, but there is definitely still a sense that discipline is important and should be started from a young age, not letting babies "manipulate" you, etc. The phrase I hear most from British parents which I don't from other cultures is "She/he's got to learn!" and there is a definite sense of not wanting to "pander" and a sense that you can spoil a child with unlimited affection (an idea which seems to be dying out but we still aren't really comfortable with showering kids with a LOT of affection particularly in public). And a funny little tendency to not want to overly praise in case children become bigheaded. There's also a bit of a tough love approach running through a lot of British parenting, a tendency towards "I told you so" and some good-natured teasing as standard, which, again, I find friends from other cultures seem shocked by because it seems harsh to them.

That's just my observations, anyway. I can't speak for everyone and it is a generalisation, clearly nobody is going to follow the model to a T. Would be interested if others have thoughts about it.

Sorry hecan't I meant the Welsh education system.
i went through the Welsh system. My ds did 3yrs then we moved to England, he's now done 2yrs in the English system. The only difference I've seen is in Wales they can start at 6 rather than 5

Erm, the Welsh EYFS is based on play rather than formal learning........ They start at 3 where we are (nursery).

I agree Bertie.

Me too.

It's based on play in England too. Compulsory Formal learning starts at 6 in Wales. Cylch Meithrin can be started at 2.5yrs in wales, same as pre school in England, which isn't compulsory. Meithrin can be started at 3 and again isn't compulsory. Same in England but t's called pre school.

My children both started school nursery (full time) at 3. Uniforms and school dinners and everything.

There's a lot less formal work for 6 year olds at DC's school (Welsh medium) than at a friend's daughter's school in England. In yr 1 her daughter got 30 mins of free play a week. Mine have around half of each day learning though play and half more formal desk based learning.

I think that's based on the individual school rather than the country as a whole

Standard in this local authority and one other. Other counties start at 3 but part time then full time reception at 4.

But I understand the Welsh government is looking to make it full time at 3 throughout Wales.

What's wrong with prams? I loved our pram!

Nothing wrong with them, but they were part of the trend of having the baby separate if you see what I mean. We used one a little with our first bit she hated not being near someone so we quickly switched to carriers full time, way easier for out and about. Our second never went in a pushchair as it was just easier to carry him so we could chase the toddler! We did have a pushchair for use by grandparents though.

They didn't know about the fourth trimester or attachment then though.

I loved out pram, but never felt comfortable having the children face outwards as babies (something that seems to be the norm). Didn't turn them round till they were about 2.5.

Loved the pram... Really no other safe way for me to get out for walks in the winter. It hit almost -30 here this winter. I could bundle him up and take him out without worrying about slipping on the ice.
Slings are great, but it's pretty great to have a tank pram you can haul the shopping home in or a little pushchair they can nap in when out and about. My back is too bad to use a sling so they were never an option at all for us.
The culture here is that babies have one nap a day outdoors in pram/pushchair unless the weather is really dire. It's seen as being very healthy for them. Mil leaves him out the back in the snow

It is really good for them.

I couldn't use a sling either - combination of enormous boobs and the associated back ache. I was glad I went for a very tall pram with a parent facing seat option. Was the best alternative for me.

Same as we have - reversible seat. He's just now starting to like facing out some days. I prefer to have him facing me so we can chat

Good reminder there maki that it can be different kids who suit different methods as well as different parents. Really ditch the guilt though. Not everything that happens to us as children/adults is caused by how we're parented as babies.

Yes - while I don't like sleep training, I really struggle to see that a child who is well cared for and loved is going to be traumatised by sleep training. I think it's far more likely that whatever the MH issues are now were present from birth and making her impossible to settle in the first place.