To wonder how attachment parents get some evening adult time?

[Ketchuponpizza]

I am a little crunchy, We have four kids and I carry my babies in a sling, cloth nappy, co sleep, breast feed on demand, etc. My DH is supportive of this, but after 7-8 months, he wants the manority of his evenings/bedroom back, and some time with his wife. Fair enough, we need time to be a couple. And so, he does sleep training. I hated it every time, so he used to send me outside with a glass of wine. If they wake up in the night, he offers them water, they have a cuddle, whilst he explains that it is night time, they look outside at the dark sky, check the other kids to see that they are asleep, and he puts them back to bed. Anytime from 4:30 onwards, I bring them into bed with me, and stick the little one on the boob. (We always wake up with at least one kid in bed with us on a morning. We don't mind, we are a cuddly family).

Thanks to him, our bedtime routine runs pretty smoothly. The odd hiccup/difficult evening, but hey, they are kids.

Recently, on another group, a young single first time mum, wrote that she was really struggling/tired with her 7 month old, asked for no -judgemental, non-negative comments. I wrote about my experience, and that now bedtime is pretty uncomplicated. My comments were deleted and I was given my first warning from admin, as they don't promote sleep training, because it can diminish the BF experience, and doesn't comply with 'gentle parenting'.

This is all news to me. If you don't give kids a bedtime, how will they ever go to bed as a toddler? How do they ever have time to be with their husbands? Or even to just do the housework? (What I end up doing most nights!!!)

I feel so sorry for that new mum, alone, and being told the only way is to co-sleep, despite her exhaustion and lack of help.

Children not expected to be mini-adults and are free to explore the world around them.

Bollocks. My family are Spanish. Children may be up late but they're expected to do as they're told. Very disciplinarian culture.

I've never needed to punish my children. They've never done anything to warrant it. They don't draw on the walls or throw their food. They've never hit or bitten. They're very laid back but sometimes have big emotions or feel scared. That's something to understand and work through, not punish.

My adult sister has grown up thinking she can do anything she likes as long and as long as she says sorry it's all fine. It's meaningless. My children say sorry when they are sorry, because that's what they've seen their parents do. Likewise with sharing. I don't share everything of mine with my husband or children, so why children should be expected to give something up just because another child wants it rather than waiting their turn is beyond me. My children choose to share because they like it when things are shared with them.

It's horses for courses.

(I wasn't implying that was why my mum and I aren't close, by the way. That's a much more complex story!)

There is a middle road, and I imagine most parents are on it somewhere. I'm just muddling through doing what works for us, and I think most parents are doing that too and accept that what works for one doesn't work for another.
I have a few things I am judgey about and I make no apology for that. No smacking (illegal where I live and they will arrest you if you do it in public) and I'd not cio (I would cc if it worked.) other than that, do what works.

There is an extreme though - and perhaps it gets amplified on the web somewhat? I think groups are echo chambers and they kind of feed the madness and isolate members from hearing any dissenting voices. I have been told I'm an abusive mother for feeding my four month old baby oatmeal on the advice of a paediatrician when Ds was dropping off the bottom of the weight curves - that kind of shit is Not OK. I wasn't pureeing crack and McDonald's at six weeks, I was acting on the advice of our doctor.

Bit more modelling needed here HeCant. You're saying we should all get on and do what works for us, but then you're speaking about how other people do things with a huge amount of disrespect and negativity. I'm wondering if your objection to AP is that they came up with your revolutionary natural international parenting ideas before you so you don't get to look clever. And you don't want AP forums because it's much more fun preaching to the unconverted. But that would be cynical.

Yes in many African/Eastern cultures it's acceptable to hit children - often with sticks - and considered absolutely unthinkable that somebody would not do this - because if you don't "discipline" your children you don't love/care about them. Being very responsive to babies does not automatically mean totally indulging all children of all ages.

It is funny how Western parents sometimes decide to pick and choose bits of different cultures while massively ignoring other parts. I mean, of course, take what you want for yourself but to romanticise other cultures while ignoring or misrepresenting parts of it is a bit dishonest.

Northern Europe is unusual worldwide with its dislike of harsh discipline. I'd say AP if you had to pick a cultural thing is most like African parenting of babies but Scandanavian parenting later on with a lot of focus on outdoors and fostering independence through freedom and responsibility rather than more organised activities.

I completely agree with Bertie. It makes little sense to dismiss
Your cultural norms only to adopt someone else's.

And this is where AP gets me frustrated. Most people are "middle of the road" well that's just being a parent- it's not AP or non UK or whatever else you want to label it.

You want to ask for "AP style" recommendations- well if you're not attached enough to Know what your child wants how are you an AP parent? It's not about following advice, it's apparently about responding to your child.

So simultaneously you think AP is just being middle of the road, and you think it's doing nothing except react to your child. At least make up your mind which straw man you're gunning for.

You want to ask for "AP style" recommendations- well if you're not attached enough to Know what your child wants how are you an AP parent? It's not about following advice, it's apparently about responding to your child.

I think very few of us have never felt the need to ask for advice.

Cat- you've not read my post properly. Reacting to your child is just normal parenting. Most people do it. It's not a philosophy

Explain how it's a straw man ? Or are you just saying that because it's phrase of the moment on MN

Philosophy- the point of the OP was a AP forum advising on sleep

Well I have well and truely had my eyes opened by this thread! I have always assumed that parents who are sitting in restaurants at 10pm with their children or getting up every hour with a three-year-old are doing so because they have no choice. Likewise families who play musical beds all night. Now I find out that parents are actually encouraging thus behaviour and somehow see it as A Good Thing.
And HeCant - can I ask you a genuine question? Do you ever take your children out of the home? Because while you can create your own utopia in situations you can control, I can't imagine a setting such as a toddler group where you were actively discouraging your snowflakes not to share with others.
While it may work in a closed space at home, bringing children up like this is selfish within a wider context as it I'd not teaching them the norms of society ie how to compromise and get on with other people.
Now, I am sure you are going to come on here and say that your children - who have never been naughty enough to chastise and who don't share - are the most popular children at school and you are always been congratulated on how lovely they are, but I do wonder what others REALLY think?

dontyoulove I was responding to your idea that if you are following AP that you don't need to ask for advice. The existence of attachment parents forums and groups suggests this is not the case. Most of us - however we raise our children- need advice and support

How can you be in touch with your child's needs and respond instinctively if you need to ask a stranger how to do it? The point is forums are there for people who are making themselves "AP" parents by following rules - exactly what AP professes not to be

DontYou, you said AP parents couldn't possibly want advice because all they had to do is respond to their child. That is a straw man because you're ridiculing AP for being something it isn't. You also seem to be pouring scorn on AP for just being the same as everyone else is doing (which amusingly you describe as "reacting" to your child, obviously completely different to responding), which is straw man number 2.

That's nonsense. What a bizarre post and bizarre need to make a conversation it's not.

Are you one of those people who needs to make your parenting into a philosophy?

Could you tell instinctively what a baby needed? I couldn't. After reading some AP info I tried slings and discovered that a lot of time what they actually needed was closeness and sleep, where with baby 1 I'd assumed every time he cried he wanted feeding. Just for an example.

Ooh, an X post, PA smiley and all. Never mind. For any posters interested in finding out what AP actually is about then there are plenty of sources online.

I don't think I'm the one coming across as making parenting into a philosophy here, but we'll have to leave that for other posters to judge.

And HeCant - can I ask you a genuine question? Do you ever take your children out of the home? Because while you can create your own utopia in situations you can control, I can't imagine a setting such as a toddler group where you were actively discouraging your snowflakes not to share with others.
While it may work in a closed space at home, bringing children up like this is selfish within a wider context as it I'd not teaching them the norms of society ie how to compromise and get on with other people.
Now, I am sure you are going to come on here and say that your children - who have never been naughty enough to chastise and who don't share - are the most popular children at school and you are always been congratulated on how lovely they are, but I do wonder what others REALLY think?

Seriously?! Of course they go out of the home. We did baby classes, and toddler classes, and soft play, and parks and all manner of other things where unknown children are. If one of mine had just got hold of a scooter or toy car at softplay, and within 30 seconds another child wanted it I wouldn't pull my child off because that wouldn't have been fair. I would say to my child that another child wanted to play when they'd finished and usually within a couple of minutes they would hand it over to the other child with a smile. Similarly I'd another child had something they wanted I'd remind them to wait until the other child had finished rather than expect the other child to stop using it that second. Hence my children are thoughtful and understand the concept of taking turns.

Similarly they are good at sharing with others (often mentioned in school reports) often lending things to their friends. But there are some things that are special to them, and just as i wouldn't lend visitors my diamond jewellery to play with, they'll opt to put their few very precious things out of the way so that their friends can play with everything else with them.

I think there are many aspects of society that could change for the better, and indeed am conscious that my children could end up in any society around the world when older. So I'll help them to be nice people generally rather than moulding them to the (often hideous) norms we have here.

They've also been told what is naughty, and certainly if they've done something they shouldn't. But I've not actively punished them for it. A friend's 5 year old frequently does dangerous stuff she knows she shouldn't - like climbing out of windows into rooves - and "grounds" her. How can you ground a 5 year old?!

We reward the good and discuss the bad. In this house "sorry" is used genuinely and means "I won't do it again". And they generally don't.

Well, HeCant, there's clearly nothing more to be said.
You have obviously cracked it and have raised two perfect children with no flaws whatsoever.
Congratulations.

Cathf, I think you might have dropped yer strawman there. Might want to nip back and pick it up...

Thanks. Means a lot.

TheDMail

??

I'm trying to work out whether I have been insulted or not!

Well, mine are home educated so never need leave the house at all.

Well, I have to say that I find the UK parenting style utter nonesense. We are from the UK, but live in Switzerland, on the border with French and not far from the UN village. It is one of the most 'international' places on earth. We are surrounded by many good friends from many cultures and mixed culture families, producing third culture kids.

The Swiss and the French, in my experience, are not at all forgiving. They may feed them shed loads of chocolate/nutella and children can stay up late but heaven forbid if they misbehave. Seriously.

In my experience, kids will behave within the examples and boundaries set by the parents.

I was easy going and lead by my kids. DS1 was an absolute pain in the bum.. didn't want to go to bed alone, I was still in there for 30min when he was 3. Now he's a dream - and it was a really weird first week when I would find myself sat next to DP at 8pm and no kids (hence DS2). DS2 was so easy from the start, he even went in with DS1 at 10 months because he was just so easy to put to bed. He's making up for it with bolshiness now he's nearly 3, although he's still very easy to put to bed.

They stay up late sometimes now, they can be trusted at a restaurant, but if they've got school tomorrow, then they'll both be in bed by 7:30 apart from special occasions because they are awful the next day if not.

I think that so much depends on the baby. I think you can certainly make it worse for yourself, but the few times I tried sleep training with DS1 I could tell it wasn't going to work for him - he wasn't just angry or upset, he was properly distraught.