To wonder how attachment parents get some evening adult time?

[Ketchuponpizza]

I am a little crunchy, We have four kids and I carry my babies in a sling, cloth nappy, co sleep, breast feed on demand, etc. My DH is supportive of this, but after 7-8 months, he wants the manority of his evenings/bedroom back, and some time with his wife. Fair enough, we need time to be a couple. And so, he does sleep training. I hated it every time, so he used to send me outside with a glass of wine. If they wake up in the night, he offers them water, they have a cuddle, whilst he explains that it is night time, they look outside at the dark sky, check the other kids to see that they are asleep, and he puts them back to bed. Anytime from 4:30 onwards, I bring them into bed with me, and stick the little one on the boob. (We always wake up with at least one kid in bed with us on a morning. We don't mind, we are a cuddly family).

Thanks to him, our bedtime routine runs pretty smoothly. The odd hiccup/difficult evening, but hey, they are kids.

Recently, on another group, a young single first time mum, wrote that she was really struggling/tired with her 7 month old, asked for no -judgemental, non-negative comments. I wrote about my experience, and that now bedtime is pretty uncomplicated. My comments were deleted and I was given my first warning from admin, as they don't promote sleep training, because it can diminish the BF experience, and doesn't comply with 'gentle parenting'.

This is all news to me. If you don't give kids a bedtime, how will they ever go to bed as a toddler? How do they ever have time to be with their husbands? Or even to just do the housework? (What I end up doing most nights!!!)

I feel so sorry for that new mum, alone, and being told the only way is to co-sleep, despite her exhaustion and lack of help.

If that works for you that's great.
But I do not understand why anyone would let a baby fall asleep on their lap until the parent went to bed - that is not encouraging good sleeping habits, nor is allowing children into your bad as and when they want. I also -dare I say it, think this is the easy option when babies are young.
I sm obviously hopelessly old-fashioned but I am afraid I need my own time and space and would see this sort of thing seriously impacting on my sanity.
But that's just me and I am obviously in a minority.

I'm the same Cath

I think some people take AP to the extreme, but it's not really supposed to be about revolving everything at all times around babies/children. It's really more of a backlash against parenting advice which focuses on detachment (hence the name). Feeding to a schedule, bottle feeding for reasons of convenience over necessity, any form of "training" a child to spend time alone. None of these are hugely popular any more, apart from perhaps the notion that babies shouldn't get used to being held all the time, so perhaps AP as a "thing" is unnecessary but I think it is still useful online as shorthand for "I don't want advice along the lines of sleep training".

I think for people it appeals to it doesn't feel like an effort. For me having a routine and a bedtime and all of that sounds a lot more effort. With AP the baby just slotted into my life and I wanted him around me at that age anyway. I don't think that is any different/better/worse than somebody wanting their own space though. I certainly need my own space now he is older and doesn't ever stop talking about pokemon.

People I know including myself who have followed AP type principles when their children were babies went on to encourage independence in toddlers by always providing the option to be held/carried/bed share/breastfeed etc, rather than pushing to wean off these things, and letting them try things that perhaps are sometimes thought of as "too dangerous" for toddlers. Kind of "baby led" in every sense but of course with supervision. Giving them responsibility and freedom to make decisions from a young age that perhaps others would choose to make themselves, because it makes their lives easier. Again, I don't think the other approach is wrong, I just prefer this one for me. I've tended to avoid discipline that relies too heavily on reward and punishment and instead try to go for an explanatory route (whether verbal or letting them experience the natural consequences or showing them) or trying to see what the intention was behind their actions and redirect it into something. We had some tough years from 3-5 when some stronger boundaries were needed (but that was my personality flaw rather than a flaw in the method) but we seem to have come through that now and DS is lovely - he can be a bit self centred, yes, but I don't think he is hugely more selfish than other children his age, particularly only children. I can't really do much about his expectation to have me/DH all to himself without actually producing another child, we do insist on alone time.

I really don't think that what is widely labelled/thought of as "AP" is anything wildly out there or weirdo, it's basically the same thing as what most parents do, you're just coming at things from a slightly different angle and sometimes not even that. I also think online it can come off as a bit extreme and if you're in a proper "AP bubble" you can also end up with a weirdly skewed idea of "mainstream parenting" which is completely unrealistic. Most people aren't using time out and sticker charts for every little thing, they explain stuff too. Most people aren't refusing to pick their babies up except for a prescribed six minutes of every day or timing feeds to the second. Most people aren't controlling everything their child comes into contact with. Most people have a rough idea of what their children are capable of understanding.

For me AP is just about being aware of what your child is capable of developmentally and trying to see things from their point of view rather than them being a passive object that you have to impose rules onto. Which I think a lot of parents already do so I don't think AP needs to be this laughable thing.

I'm with you cath... I think responding to a child's needs can easily morph into responding to all wants. The needs of the family as a whole have to be balanced in too. That means gently teaching little ones that while they are loved unconditionally they don't get everything they want.
My son wants to lie next to me with a boob jammed in his mouth all night. He doesn't need it. So he's gently being coaxed bit by bit into fewer feeds and into the cot. I'm probably far too soft...

I would be very interested to see future studies on how future extreme AP kids fare in adult life.

Cath I don't think you are in a minority. I think that the fact AP is a "thing" points to the fact that most people seem to generally hold this view that babies and toddlers need to be "trained" into "good habits" from very early on, and it's clearly a method that works very well for a lot of people.

I don't think there is ever going to be a study into how "AP kids" fare in life because it's far too ambiguous a label to be able to pin down.

The AP approach to Hubble's issue is that they will grow out of wanting that eventually, so if it doesn't bother you to keep doing it, why not?

Of course if it bothers you, that is different, but it didn't bother me and so I left my son to grow out of wanting night feeds. He certainly doesn't have them at 7 but it isn't anything that I had to train out of him or put any effort into, he just at some point didn't want it any more.

I don't call any of this extreme though. And how do you define need? Before 1 they needed to be close to someone. That's how the slept best.

The 'AP decriers' can't have it both ways. Either it is done because it is easier, or it is hard work to revolve around kids and parents never get time off.

Of course some families may take things too far, at both ends of the spectrum, but tbh I see how we do things as the most normal, natural way. My 6 year old needs (not just wants) affection and reassurance in the night sometimes, much like adults do.

Many people claim to be in the minority when they disagree with AP, but given that it is not the norm and as such has to be given a title (not to mention getting threads repeatedly saying how indulgent and ridiculous it is) surely those saying it must know that they are, in fact, the majority?

Cross post.

I don't think AP is even a thing. It's a label given by people who feel the need to belong to something. Very very few parents don't meet their children's needs as soon as they can. Thee vast majority of people who sleep train do so for positive reasons which are related to their children well being

Thinks back with longing to a time when the kids went to bed early evening.

The idea of adult time is flawed ... they grow up!

Well quite...

Yes Hubble. It's me that's the problem and now ds is nearly 3 I've left them all to it. Ds, dh and the dog can all burp, fart, yell and toss and turn as much as they like and all sleep through it.

I'm in a room on the other side of the house with a lovely loud fan going!

I can only go by my own children. I was more ap with my second then my first in that she fell asleep with us downstsirs then we would take her up to bed with us. She'd feed during the night. At around the age of 16-18 months she wanted to go to her bed with her big sister (they shared a room). Then when she wanted to feed she'd come back in with us (once a night). At 2 1/2 she decided she didn't want to do that and aoart from occasional times when she has been ill or upset she has slept in her bed. Both go to bed ( the rule is they go to their rooms at a certain time but can read for as long as they want), both sleep well etc. both are very loving, well mannered girls with no sense of entitlement what so ever.

Massively missing the point there DontYouKnow. AP is a term describing a rough basket of general principles and particular ideas about parenting. It's not a thing saying all other approaches are in some way wrong let alone not done for "positive reasons". It's fine to sleep train at 7 months if you feel it's best for your family, but it's not generally compatible with the ideas of AP. Like you can't feed baby rice at 4 months and call it BLW. Or bottle feed and say you're breastfeeding.

If an AP family were really struggling with sleep at 7m there are other ways they might try to nudge things so that they work for the whole family. If I wanted advice on that as an AP parent, it would be massively unhelpful to be told to just refuse night feeds because that would not be in line with the general parenting approach I was following. Like going looking for bf advice and people telling you to just stop and bottle feed instead because that's what they did and it worked brilliantly for them. And that's exactly why labels can be helpful. If I want an APish approach and ask on an AP forum I'm much more likely to get answers that might work for our family. Rather than asking on MN and getting yet another daft argument about what AP is and whether it's a Thing or not.

Sorry, meant Don'tYouLoveCalpol there. Batty autocorrect.

I'm not missing the point at all. I know exactly what AP identifies itself as. It's crap. I BLW, EBF and co sleep. I wouldn't dream of calling myself an attachment parent. It just makes you sound like a massive wanker

OK they will not want to sleep with you then but will they still expect their every demand to be met by their parents? How long do you put your life on hold for? How do you define yourself when you no longer have small children? Does your relationship with you partner suffer because you have basically sacrificed yourself for your children?

My children range from being in nappies to late teens. They all have their moments but they don't expect every demand to be met. They are one of 7 so that is just an impossibility.
I will still be me when I no longer have small children . From reading threads on here I seem to actually have more time to pursue interests than many other mothers.
I have been married very happily for around 20 years. I haven't sacrificed myself or my marriage for anything

I also -dare I say it, think this is the easy option when babies are young.

It is the easy option, I don't understand why I would intentionally choose to make life hard, I breastfeed because it is easier, I co sleep because it is easier, slings are easier than prams and so on.

You don't have to label yourself if you don't want to. Some people find it helpful to have a shorthand for a particular approach. What's so crap about that if it helps them? I've given an example of how it is useful to have an AP based group. We don't all have the resilience to deal with 30 replies telling us our whole approach is wrong and we're spoiling our little 7 month olds in the hope of getting 5 that are more in line with our parenting.

Because they're just doing something to be part of the AP club not because it's natural to them or necessarily best for their family.

If they were purely responding to their children's needs why would they need advice from a Facebook group?

We followed some principles of AP without having a clue what it was; we just did what we could to make life easier on everyone. Wouldn't ever describe myself as 'crunchy', though, as it makes my bottom clench.

AP is like all other parenting techniques; advice. It's not factually proven, it's not science, it won't work for each child. You do what you can for the baby you have. DS1 is 10 and wouldn't ever co-sleep unless ill. DS2 never slept unless he was in our bed. Neither is more or less deprived or developed for the additional time with us.

One liked our bed, one didn't. One still does, in fact, and I suspect he'll probably creep in at 4am til he's fifty fucking three. And my MIL will be there crowing "you made a rod for your own back" and I shall smile the smile of a woman who couldn't give a shit because, frankly, after the sleep deprivation he put us through, he could sleep on a pissing parrot perch on the headboard so long as we all get some rest.

I don't understand the whole it's your marriage or your kids thing at all, like spending time on one is to the detriment of the other. My DH and I have found that having children has brought us closer together, I thought this was common?

When DD does her first wake and he gets her from her room and brings her in with us for a feed from me and a cuddle, I feel a huge rush of love for this big strong man caring for our tiny (now not so tiny!) child who needs us so much. He says he feels similar watching me breastfeed - a kind of wow she's the mother of my children how amazing feeling.

When we stop having small children we'll discover the next stage of our relationship together...that doesn't scare me or worry me.

In much the same way I am now more likely to go for coffee with my closest friends than a night on the town - we have changed, we have children who need us at bedtime, lunch is easier to arrange - they are still my close friends who I hold very dear.

I wouldnt want a relationship where I felt I was (or he expected me to) chasing that pre-kids feeling. Change always happens. Strong relationships embrace it.

If they were purely responding to their children's needs why would they need advice from a Facebook group?

Mn is full of alpha females who are certain that they have all the answers when it comes to parenting. I am not one of those women and so I have asked for advice on FB forums. I don't really have family that I could ask. I wouldn't ask on here because you get shouted at and told that you are doing everything wrong. I ask people who have a similar approach as myself.

Not at all DontYou. OP's example is a good one. Parents want ideas of an AP friendly way to deal with a 7 month old non sleeper. Not to be in some stupid club, but because AP type methods work for their family, and they don't want to wade through a zillion messages advising on sleep training and saying their kids were sleeping through the night at 7m when that isn't the sort of approach that particular family are interested in.

How can you call yourself an AP if you don't know the deal with AP and non sleeping? Co sleeping is the only answer, and a fundamental part of the AP "idea"

It's just something for people to belong to. Like brownies