Burkinis

[TaterTots]

We've all seen the fuss about them, but last night I saw my first one in 'real life', which got me thinking. Also today two of my friends were arguing about them on FB - one against any ban, the other claiming they are a symbol of oppression.

My view has pretty much always been that it's just a different type of swimsuit; no different to some women wearing bikinis and others wearing one-pieces. I'd always thought the bans in places like Cannes were all about the culture/assimilation issue; it hadn't really crossed my mind that the 'modesty' might be being forced on women.

What do you think?

I dont think abyone needs to worry about any kind of ban of any sort on anything in Britain. You can basically live your life any way you like here.
France is very intolerant. But UK a bit too tolerant.

Iusedtobecarmen I don't actually think men would stare at me (maybe 10 years ago they would have!) but I don't want them to see me at all. I believe that only my husband should see my body. People do look at me sometimes, on and off the beach but I don't care, they are not really seeing me, just my clothes.There are many reasons why I cover but basically its because I believe God told us we should and I also believe in the idea that Muslims should be distinctive from non Muslims in how we dress, I want to be recognizable as Muslim. For me its less about what other people think or see and more to do with my interpretation of Islam and my relationship with God. I cant speak for all hijab wearing Muslims, there are many different reasons why women wear hijab and different interpretations of what constitutes correct hijab.

Mermaid, WHY are you covered when your husband isn't? If he feels bad, why doesn't he cover up with you? I just DONT get why women wear this crap!! It your husband feels soooo bad, what is stopping him from wearing it??? I would really like to know the answer to this one.

LastGirlOnTheLeft I imagine you see covering up as a kind of hardship? My husband does too so that's why he feels bad. The reason he doesn't do it is because he doesn't have to, there is no religious reason why he should. And I would find it ridiculous. I don't see wearing hijab as a hardship, I believe I should wear it and I want to. My next door neighbor isn't even religious, she wears it because she thinks its pretty and because her Mum does. I think that's why so many people don't understand hijab wearers, they see it as something negative and difficult when for the most part most of us don't. Does that make any sense? You see it as crap but I see it as a way of being closer to God and looking elegant at the same time.

I saw a story in the news today about some Iranian men wearing hijabs in protest about laws that require their wives to do so. I found it great that they would protest like this.

Oppression of women must stop.

https://nervana1.org/2016/08/21/the-right-not-to-wear-a-burkini/]]
This is interesting on the subject.

mermaid
Thanks
I understand what you are saying and i too,really only want my husband seeing my body! Yes i wear a bikini but only on holiday.and in a very hot country where i will be in the pool and want to get a suntan.
Generally i dont expose much of my body!
Hijab i get,full on burka no. You cant even tell what gender the person is underneath. Its a tent. And i dont get why women have to be modest and for the most part,men dont.

I think a MUslim can be instantly recognisable by wearing a headscarf etc without full on burka.

Iusedtobecarmen Suntans are pretty and vitamin D is very important, I'm lucky I have a private garden : )
I agree that covering the face isn't necessary but I think if women want to they should be able to have the choice.
Muslim men do have to be modest, they're supposed to cover from the navel to knee at least and shouldn't unnecessarily look at, speak to or touch women they are not related or married to. Obviously the rules are stricter for women in regards to dress, we believe that men and women are different, men are more visually stimulated than women and find not looking harder than women do.

How ridiculous that we are in a time that people are being banned from covering up and applauded for having everything on show??? Surely if we should have the freedom to not wear much then we should also have the freedom to cover up as much as we want too?!? What's the difference between wearing a burkini or a wetsuit?

Why does it bother so many people who choose to put everything on display? Some feel there's no need to have everything hanging out on a beach in front of everyone for the sake of a tan, and some might like that, it is no one else's business regardless!

The fact that there is a ban on it is shameful. Some women wear it not because they have to or are being oppressed but because they WANT to, maybe they don't want a tan and would like to protect their skin? Maybe they don't feel the need to have everything on show.

Why do we live in a time where people immediately assume that the women who are covered up are 'oppressed'? It is beyond ignorant and unacceptable. What is the difference between a nun, orthodox Jewish lady or a muslim lady covering up or wearing a scarf?

Any pictures/depictions you see of the Virgin Mary, she is always 'modest', covered and has a scarf on her head, was she 'oppressed'???

If you are uncomfortable to see a burkini on the beach, it is your problem and your ignorance, not the person wearing it...

Telling women they can't wear something is just as repressive as telling them they must wear something.

The banning of an item of clothing that identifies her religion (this what the ban is based on) is as oppressive to women as being forced to totally come up and become invisible as herself in public

No it isn't as there is still a choice

I may not agree with the ban but that it is as oppressive to women as being forced to cover up is not true

mermaid
I totally get what you are saying except the bit about things being different for men and women.
We are living in the 21st century and people are following a religion where women have to observe different rules. And that men find it more difficult to not look at other women than the other way round!!!
I think its insulting to men and puts the responsibility on women to cover themselves and not tempt men. Surely in that case it should be men who are made to avoid women totally or being out in public as they clearly have no self control.

carmen you try walking around in the UK topless in public and see how far you get.
Yet men take their shirts off in public all the time in hot weather.
That would make the rules different for men and women yet most people don't even question that.

I am not sure whether France (and Germany) are trying to make Muslim women feel uncomfortable and unwanted by banning the Burqua/Birkini on beaches. If so that is unkind and just plain wrong. I am over 60 and wear a modest tankini that is skirted so my wobbly/crepey bits are not on show. My choice. I am old enough and ugly enough to make that choice. I would not like to be the person who tells me I can only wear a bikini on the beach. Neither would I want to wear a Birkini. My choice.

Can we not find a compromise? What if the face (not hair) had to be legally on show at all times regardless of nationality or religion. No French or German minister could then say there was a reason to go any further with any ban on clothing as the main argument (that the person cannot be identified) is removed. A face can show humility and is our "window on the world".

We just need to find better ways to rub along together as human beings rather than looking for the differences between us that are highlighted by wearing the Burqua/Birkini/Hijab.

One day there may be a common enemy (killer spiders from Mars - ok flippant but you get my drift) so any time wasted squabbling amongst ourselves is time not spent finding a cure for cancer or discovering working antibiotics.

Mermaid It is really sad that your choice of clothing makes your husband feel bad. He probably has enough on his plate with work and other things men have to deal without carrying the burden of your clothes making him feel bad.

There is something called a Self Fulfilling Prophesy. If you believe something for long enough then your behaviours change to make it more likely that the thing you fear the most will happen. So if you fear men will look at you when you go out, whether covered or not, your body language will show how you feel, and is more likely to attract attention. That will be the case regardless of what you wear. Body language can be seen through clothing.

Your choice of clothing should make you feel lifted and proud, not worry you and your husband and certainly not make your husband feel bad.

I'm just back from holiday in the South of France and find the French reactions quite interesting. The principle of laicite has underlined the French state for so long and is being adapted to apply to situations that are very different from the original principle. I very much support the idea of no religious interference in state education or politics but think applying the same rules to how adults dress in public places is very much a step too far.
I have two very fair skinned boys who wore sunsuits covering their arms and legs and sunhats with veil type things at the back on the beach. They probably had as much covered skin as a Burkina and whilst I'm sure many of the French sunbathers thought they looked ridiculous I very much doubt anyone would argue against their right to wear them.

I've been following the thread but it seems no one wants to challenge the idea that it's wrong for it to be the woman's responsibility to hide her hair from men and that really the man is responsible for his own thoughts and actions. The tradition of head covering is based in this so in my view it is wrong. So what if you like covering your hair - this is still what it represents. I don't believe in banning people from doing it if that's how they want to live their lives.Posters are still going on about so-called "modesty". I'm hiding this thread now as no doubt certain posters will again decide to respond in a highly goady and rude manner.

Is that a serious question? What sort of choices do you think women had in those days? Poor women didn't even get to choose who fathered her children.

The thing is western women were for very many hundred years beaten over the head with the idea of being the vessels of original sin and having modesty forcibly impressed on them. Lots of rules: only young maidens can show their hair/show your ears or your ankles and you are a whore/wear sadde colours not bright ones. Not really surprising that the concept of having to cover up to be modest and avoid 'tempting men' (poor little lambs) and to be close to God leaves a nasty taste in the mouth to many. However you wrap it up it just seems to be the same old, same old misogeny.

Iusedtobecarmen I don't think Islam should change just because its 2016, I do get that traditional gender roles and our views on men and women are frowned upon these days but they are still my views and the views of the majority of Muslims. I think that science and psychology for the most part backs up our belief that men are more visually stimulated and are different from women.

yukduck If I've given the impression that I'm not proud of wearing hijab then that was wrong, I am. It isn't something I give much thought to, only when its questioned, or I'm shopping. I don't worry about people looking at me- because I'm covered. My husband feels bad when we're swimming or when the weather is really hot, as I said in another comment he sees it as a hardship, I don't.

NigellasGuest don't know if you'll see this but the idea that we cover our hair to stop men looking is too simplistic, there's a lot more to it than that and hijab is not just about covering the hair.

Mermaid All women should be proud and hold their heads high.

I just don't think that the French or German rules on dress are helping women.

yukduck I totally agree

I doubt Mermaids husband is struggling on a daily basis over his wife's dress choice!

And yes, there's more to covering hair than to hide it from men.

What exactly is so awful about a Burkini? It's just a long sleeved top and trouser suit with a swimming cap. No idea what all the fuss is about. Do people want wet suits banned too?

I own a burkini. I am not Muslim. I do burn super daily and hate being exposed in swimsuits. I also choose to cover my hair ad a marred Jewish woman. I love my burkini. Its more comfortable than a wetsuit or rash guard

Mermaid
Maybe science does back up that men are more visually stimulated. However we are not talking about half undressed hwre,we are talking about 'normal dressing' v burka.
As for burkini i think it depends what men are exposed to to how they react. I imagine my dp.is not one bit interested in bikini clas bodies on a beach as he jad seem it a million times.
And i not its a bit off topic but i agree with whoever said the burka/burkini is not part of our culture in the UK. Just like the bikini is not part of other cutures and i doubt it would even be a debate for them.