Burkinis

[TaterTots]

We've all seen the fuss about them, but last night I saw my first one in 'real life', which got me thinking. Also today two of my friends were arguing about them on FB - one against any ban, the other claiming they are a symbol of oppression.

My view has pretty much always been that it's just a different type of swimsuit; no different to some women wearing bikinis and others wearing one-pieces. I'd always thought the bans in places like Cannes were all about the culture/assimilation issue; it hadn't really crossed my mind that the 'modesty' might be being forced on women.

What do you think?

Maybe banning high heels and make up would not be such a bad idea. I do feel women here are oppressed by those in that it takes quite a lot of guts to never wear either

Removing subtle oppression and replacing it with overt oppression, what a good idea!
How about we just force everyone to wear cotton jumpsuits, all in the same colour, with clogs? That would do the job.

Difference is I don't care what the pps dd wears. I'm not trying to control anyone and I'm certainly not defending this cultural imperialistic shit, like you

No you are defending an arbitrary, misogynistic concept of women being "modestly dressed" . You are trying to make out "modest dressing" is a real objective standard as opposed to one person's or a group of person's personal prejudices which vary from culture to culture and age to age.

What makes you think you have the right to proclaim another woman is not "modestly dressed" ?


Lass thanks you have worded what I was driving at. My daughter IS modest and she wears a bikini.

The cartoon above is silly because of the evolution of the two juxtaposed ways of dressing which is different. Plus, the one on the right isn't a burkini anyway?

Removing subtle oppression and replacing it with overt oppression, what a good idea!

Say what you want, it worked for Chinese women. Yeah, their lives are still shit, but at least they can now walk on a pair of healthy feet.

Besides, I wouldn't feel oppressed by a ban on high heels. I never wear them anyway.

You also aren't allowed to walk around naked in public. This limits your fashion choices, too. Is that oppression? If not, why not, if yes, why do you tolerate this?

NigellasGuest I would also say that anyone who bangs on about women not being "modestly dressed" is lacking any modesty in the good sense of that word.

Truly modest people do not boast about how they are richer or cleverer or more virtuous than others.

Exactly, as per my cut and paste from the dictionary definition of modesty.

which also stated that there is another "old fashioned" interpretation of "modesty", involving dressing "to avoid sexual interest." Yes, that attitude is indeed old fashioned. The responsibility should be on the man there, these days. That's why in Victorian times they used those bathing machines that I linked to earlier, and of course we have evolved from using those.

i just don't like the appropriation of the word "modesty" and would like to reiterate: my 16 yr old DD wears a bikini on the beach and SHE IS MODEST. FACT.

Nigella this thread isn't about your daughter and without meaning to sound rude, it's becoming uninteresting to read about her.

No you are defending an arbitrary, misogynistic concept of women being "modestly dressed" . You are trying to make out "modest dressing" is a real objective standard as opposed to one person's or a group of person's personal prejudices which vary from culture to culture and age to age

No I'm not, thats what you THINK I said (you seem confused) not what I actually said.

Anyway, this isn't about definitions or words, we're talking about REAL oppression of REAL women. Stop derailing it with nonsense shit about what different dictionaries might say.]

Say what you want, it worked for Chinese women. Yeah, their lives are still shit, but at least they can now walk on a pair of healthy feet

How is that remotely the same thing? Unless you have to repeatedly break a womans bones to fit her into a burkini, its not. It's just more bullshit to justify oppression.

No, the thread is about burquinis and please do correct me if I'm wrong but I am under the impression that they are often worn for "modesty." I am using my daughter to demonstrate how this interpretation of the word "modesty" has been appropriated by people with a certain agenda, that's all. It could go for any number of bikini wearers, not just my DD. Then again there will be loads of bikini wearers who are not modest. We just need to understand what "modest" actually means. I know you don't mean to sound rude.

That cartoon is so stupid.

I don't wear a bikini, when indi wear one, for any man.
I wear it because I like to feel the sun and the water in my skin when I'm on the beach.
Abd it dries fast, it's not nice to sit in wet swimsuits.

Nigella this thread isn't about your daughter and without meaning to sound rude, it's becoming uninteresting to read about her

Toast The rudeness here was Hedda's decision to label another poster's daughter as not being "modestly dressed"

Hedda As for derailing the thread with "nonsense shit" you pretty much started it with your definition of subjective opinion as "facts"

As for "real oppression " good grief , and you don't think anyone who thinks "modest dressing" is a real, objective concept isn't colluding in oppression?

No idea what you are on about re Chinese shoes. I didn't post anything about them.

The word has a particular meaning when it comes to clothing etc. Your opinion on that meaning is irrelevant. Your DD may be a modest person, but if she is wearing a skimpy bikini she is not modestly dressed. That is using factual definitions of words, not opinions

This is exactly what you said. Are you now trying to back track and say what you really meant is-

"Some deeply unpleasant and misogynistic people, both men and women, think that modesty applies to how much clothes women wear. Some deeply unpleasant and misogynistic people, both men and women, think women who wear bikinis are not modest."

" Such people do not really understand the meaning of "modest". Modest people do not boast about how rich, clever, religious or virtuous they are"

The French have banned Burkinis, burquas, face coverings etc. This thread is almost nuclear debating this at a far deeper level than just choice of clothing. The thread has covered female oppression, misogyny, male domination, FGM, and a woman's freedom of choice to wear what she wants.

But many other things have been banned: smoking in public and in cars with children in, public nudity, urinating in public, public drunkenness, allowing your dog to defecate in public places and not picking it up, carrying knives or guns. All are punishable by fines or imprisonment. The burka issue is being debated with far more ferocity than those bans, and they are far more serious that a woman's choice of clothing.

Whether we like it or not, we live in a Western society. One poster asked why a nun wearing a habit is not seen as something strange. Good point. But a nun is Catholic and Catholicism is part of Western society alongside Christianity. The Burka/Burkini/Hijab and other indication of a religious faith has not evolved within Western society so is felt as "different". This is the same for any national dress, it would provoke curiosity at best, fear and hostility at worst. Western society not only embraces, but positively celebrates fashion (I remember hot pants and mini skirts - ok not my finest hour!). Westerners celebrate our freedom to express ourselves through dress (think Duchess of Cambridge in THAT sheer dress that attracted a Prince at Uni, or Brigitte Bardot in THAT white bikini in James Bond). Our beauty ideal is expressed through the face, hair and body (rightly or wrongly), and this is pretty much the polar opposite of how Muslim women wish to express themselves (fully covering both body and face).

I am surprised at France as I thought they were more tolerant. I would like to know their reasons, and similarly for Germany as I believe they have also banned the Burqua.

The debate goes far deeper than dress choices. It is one thing to know that there are differences, accepting them, celebrating them, and eventually assimilating or sharing them, and quite another to label them as "banned".

I would loathe anyone telling me what I should or shouldn't wear because it's not the norm or it's not their ideal.

Here's the thing, I will decide what the fuck I want to put on my body, whether it be a bikini, Burkini, tankini or swimming costume. And in putting on whatever the heck I want, I will let you put on whatever the heck you want..

If it is a sign that covered up woman are oppressed, does that just extend to Muslim women or is my 80 year old mother in the equation too? .

I really don't think it is really anyone else's business what a stranger decides to put on his/her body.

I find this whole situation odd.

Until I see a man wearing a Burkini, I refuse to believe it is any woman's FREE choice.

Your DD may be a modest person, but if she is wearing a skimpy bikini she is not modestly dressed.

No. If she is wearing a bikini plastered in rhinestones and frippery I might say she is not modestly dressed. If she is wearing a bikini that's just plain black, say, then she is modestly dressed. And that is using factual definitions of words, not opinions.

For anyone who is bored of me mentioning my DD, then please just substitute "a bikini wearer."

Until I see a man wearing a Burkini, I refuse to believe it is any woman's FREE choice. I've never seen a man in a budgie smuggler, are they being oppressed too? I'm certainly feeling oppressed seeing them but that's another thread.

Woman rather...

People are using different definitions of the word 'modesty' and talking at cross-purposes because of it. I'm not sure that anyone talking about 'modest dress' as opposed to modesty as a personality or behavioural trait could really include wearing a bikini. There are lots of reasons to choose to wear a bikini, but I'd be very surprised if anyone ever listed 'modesty' as one of them.

Further up-thread, someone mentioned high heels. I never wear high heels, and I think they contribute to a misogynistic way of viewing women. However, I'd be completely against banning them, to the point where I'd actively protest it - because even with my ideological objections, I don't think that I or anyone else should get to tell other women what to wear, or what not to wear. It's possible to disagree with things without taking away other people's freedom to choose them.

Modesty is a subjective concept. I'd like it to stay that way, not be legistlated on. Wear a bikini, wear a burkini, wear a one piece, wear whatever you want to the beach. Not what some pervy man tells you to wear.

No If she is wearing a bikini plastered in rhinestones and frippery I might say she is not modestly dressed

What she wears has nothing to do with modesty. Her sparkling rhinestone bikini is ostentatious; her plain bikini is plain. No one has the right to criticise for her for either choice far less suggest she is immodest or somehow lacks virtue for choosing the sparkling one.

I'm not sure that anyone talking about 'modest dress'

What exactly is "modest dress".

I'm afraid it's a concept I find rather puzzling; unless of course you are using it in the sense used in , for example, Jane Eyre where Jane preferred her plain , modest , woolen dress to the fancy silk dress Rochester offered her. Beyond that it's a concept that seems largely redundant.

Women wearing trousers used to be accused of dressing immodestly.

zerry I also take exception to being told what to wear. I have not been told what clothes to wear since I was a baby!!

But we cannot get away from the fact that what we wear is not just about the clothes. A while back mums on the school run were featured in the Daily Fail for wearing pj's and dressing gowns in the car. I could wear an evening gown and tiara to work, but I would probably be disciplined and sent home to change. There is a dress code where I work. Similarly, I would not dream of exposing my midriff or cleavage in a Muslim country, despite my feeling very strongly that I should have the right to do so. I know it would cause offense. I would respect the culture of the country I was visiting.

We are not all free (even if we fight hard for the right) to express ourselves. That is just the world we live in sadly.

I am still a bit puzzled as to why France is taking this stance. It is not really on to dictate what people wear in leisure time at the beach. It is different at work as they pay your wages and we have to toe the company line or move jobs. We have choices. Muslim women cannot as easily change countries if made to feel unwelcome on the beach.

Nigella you are completely missing the point.
Dressing modestly and behaving modestly are entirely different things.
A prostitute could be covered from head to toe but not be considered modest in behaviour .......a woman shopping in Tesco in a bikini would be considered immodestly dressed , yet the same woman in the same bikini on most European beaches where topless sunbathing is acceptable would be considered covered up or modestly dressed. It's all in the context. (I'm at a bit of a loss why you think it's all about your daughter too though)

I am upset to see that so many of you are against Islamic swimwear with someone calling it ridiculous looking and others saying its oppressive. I have been considering getting one for a long time now but it's worrying about these kind of reactions that put me off. I would love to get in the water with my children but I will not wear a swim suit- my choice. If I had one I could at least give it a go. I wouldn't even mind if it took a long time to dry/ wasn't so comfortable. I am not sure why they wouldn't be comfortable though. I am almost certain that truly oppressed Muslim women would not be able to go out swimming anyway so the argument for banning it so that Muslim women can't be forced to wear them is pointless. All it will do is stop women who choose to cover up and want to have a go at swimming from actually going swimming. I can't help but think this is just another 2 fingers up at Muslims. Is it so hard to believe that some people like to dress like this and don't care at all about how men are allowed to dress?