Burkinis

[TaterTots]

We've all seen the fuss about them, but last night I saw my first one in 'real life', which got me thinking. Also today two of my friends were arguing about them on FB - one against any ban, the other claiming they are a symbol of oppression.

My view has pretty much always been that it's just a different type of swimsuit; no different to some women wearing bikinis and others wearing one-pieces. I'd always thought the bans in places like Cannes were all about the culture/assimilation issue; it hadn't really crossed my mind that the 'modesty' might be being forced on women.

What do you think?

Bikini or burkhini? 2 sides of the same coin.

The problem is still men.

Personally, I feel oppressed by the fact that, as a Western womam, I am expected to reveal most of my body in a bikini, remove all body hair and be "beach body ready". I've been looking for a new one piece swimsuit and the ones on ASOS are all thoroughly pornified, with cut out bits that make them more revealing than some bikinis and some of them even looking like bondage gear. I'd actually rather wear a burkini and find it rather odd that supposed values of freedom and equality involve telling women that they must expose their bodies in order to be allowed to swim in the sea or lie on a beach.

I agree with MrsTP (and not just cause she is generally wise) - Caitlin Moran had a great sexism test, "are the men doing it?". If not, and it's not something biology specific, then yes, it's sexist and oppressive.

Amen to that Destiny.

Men do lots of violent shit, and lets face it they've got bit of previous for this. So, do we

a) talk about male violence in society

or

b) get stressed about clothes that women wear

Soupdragon raises the most important point for me. If the option of a burkini is removed, what options remain for the women who would have worn them? It's easy for "liberated" people in "liberated" societies to deride the burkini, but for some it might be a radical and important step. If insisting that what "we" see as inappropriate dress should be banned removes the only option for a Muslim woman to go swimming, how has that helped that woman?

It's very difficult but I'm not sure that blanket bans tackle the root cause of the issue. I'm very interested to hear other opinions.

I don't see the problem with them, it's just another swimsuit choice in my eyes. I don't understand the whole "it's not our culture/how we do things here" thing - so? No one is saying you have to wear them, if other people choose to wear them then that's up to them surely?

People should wear what they want, so what if some people think it looks ridiculous. No one would bat an eye if someone wore 3/4length shorts, a t-shirt/cardigan and a hat that would be okay, but a burkini which covers pretty much the same amount of skin isn't? It's wrong to tell a woman she can't essentially wear a different version of those clothes because she's a Muslim.

I think banning them because they oppress women will make things worse for those who are actually oppressed, it could mean that those women you see wearing a burkini on the beach/pool may end up not feeling/being able to go for a swim or to the beach at all.

Honestly, I own a bikini and a burkini. I wear either depending on the amount of sun exposure I'm going to get and what plan to do.
FYI, a burkini is much easier to put on then a wet suit, so when diving it's my go to.,
I will not be going to France anytime soon, rather I will stay in the Middle East where they let me wear what I want.

Personally, I feel oppressed by the fact that, as a Western womam, I am expected to reveal most of my body in a bikini, remove all body hair and be "beach body ready". I've been looking for a new one piece swimsuit and the ones on ASOS are all thoroughly pornified, with cut out bits that make them more revealing than some bikinis and some of them even looking like bondage gear. I'd actually rather wear a burkini and find it rather odd that supposed values of freedom and equality involve telling women that they must expose their bodies in order to be allowed to swim in the sea or lie on a beach.

Also this with bells on.

I am for a burka ban, as those things are endangering women's lives, and quite a lot of Muslim women/ women with Muslim background are for a ban, too, but think we should be not so strict about swimsuits.

Especially since the average man cannot afford to keep his wife imprisoned at home (someone has to do the grocery shopping, etc.), but absolutely can afford to keep her from swimming.

I do see the problem with men thinking they can force women to wear specific clothes. Men commenting on women's clothes in a way that suggest that the woman is not modest enough should be made a hatecrime, and punished very severely. (I mean, sexism in general should be considered a hatecrime, but perhaps it would be easier to make it a "reverse-racism hatecrime"?)

Thefitfatty the thing that I think when I see the full burkini is that I could not wear it due to the fact that the upper body part is attached at the front and at the back to the head piece. So it looks like it would feel extremely different to a long sleeved rash vest worn with a separate swimming hat due to the neck coverage and also the ear coverage. Do you find that the neck covering is ok then, not restrictive/strangulating and that the ear coverage doesn't prevent your ears from either hearing when on the surface or draining having been underwater? I am a fan of a fair bit of beach covering and always wear a rash vest and cycling shorts style outfit. I've sun burned my bum snorkelling in a normal costume!

For anyone wanting swimwear, sports direct have a massive range from tiny bikinis to full burkinis and everything in between - like swimsuits, rash vests, cycling short/legging style things.

How can it be right for us to tell women they must show us their bodies?
Banning the item doesn't get rid of patriarchy and misogyny. It just makes the lives of women harder.

Personally, I feel oppressed by the fact that, as a Western woman, I am expected to reveal most of my body in a bikini, remove all body hair and be "beach body ready".

The difference is that if you go against those expectations, the worst that can happen is that you'll be told you look ugly. No one will say that men are justified in sexually harrassing you. (I say that as a woman who occasionally wears short trousers with hairy legs. No one dared to complain yet.)

And that's the problem I have with the burkini and things like it; once they emerge, they soon become the standard for the members of those ethnic group where the trend started.

We need to stop assuming other peoples' choices imply criticism of our own choices. If someone chooses to cover up, it does not intrinsically imply judgement of someone else who likes to wear very little.

Burkinis seem almost indistinguishable from lightweight wetsuits, and have no visible religious symbols so the ban is disproportionate and discriminatory. Women just can't fucking win

We need to stop assuming other peoples' choices imply criticism of our own choices. If someone chooses to cover up, it does not intrinsically imply judgement of someone else who likes to wear very little.

Not intrinsically, but apparently, a lot of burka-wearing women are rather vocal about this. (I read this on the blog of a woman who was forced into an arranged marriage by her Muslim parents. Not seen many women in burkas myself.)

I think we should ask those affected by the laws - the women - whether they want a ban or not, and what implications such a ban would have on their lives. Not just women who wear burkas, but women with a background that makes it likely that male relatives would demand that they start to wear burkas.

A ban on everything that covers a person's face is a good comprimise in my opinion - it's a legitimate safety concern.

If it wouldn't be seen as gross cultural appropriation I would wear one. Much better than a bikini. I will never ever understand why people wear bikinis in public. People don't hang out on the beach in their underwear and a bikini is often smaller! How anyone can be confident in so little is beyond me. And I'm a size 6 or below. (maybe if I was a size 8-10 I'd feel different but I doubt it).

But if freedom to wear as little or as much material as a person wants to means freedom for everyone to be out and about in summer then that's a good thing, surely.

If it would be okay for unconfident white women of loosely Christian heritage to saunter along the beach wearing a loose shirt and cotton slacks, why the frell wouldn't it be okay for a practising Muslim woman to cover up to the same extent, using swimsuit fabric?

Seems to me the only real difference is the motivation. So we're criminalising thoughts now, are we?

Good going, France.

I find it as comfortable as a full piece bathing suit, TBH. In that it's hot and sweaty and I will only wear it over a bikini if I have to. But when the sun is bright and the ocean deep I would choose a burkini over a horrid fucking wetsuit.

I think I deserve the choice.

Interesting point from a pp, would I be allowed to wear a bikini in Muslim countries? Surely this is more about respecting the customs and culture of another country?

Interesting point from a pp, would I be allowed to wear a bikini in Muslim countries? Surely this is more about respecting the customs and culture of another country?

Yes you would.

With the noteable exceptions of Saudi Arabia and Iran, you have no issues wearing a bikini in the Middle East. And most of the middle eastern countries hate KSA and Iran.

Ginghamstarfish
In some middle eastern countries no you wouldn't be able to wear a bikini but is that what we want to aspire to be like? Countries that have absolute monarchies and strictly control citizens through violence if they don't follow a particular interpretation of a religion?
We try to be a free and equal, progressive country. That means politicians not dictating what women wear whether that be a bikini or a niqab.

I like them. I think they're another option.

It is not sensible or actually comfortable - I imagine - to cover up to THAT extent to swim. Clearly no one would make that choice. It is oppression and it is totally unacceptable.

Personally, I think this looks much nicer than a skimpy bikini.

80s i love that and would totally consider buying one.