Burkinis

[TaterTots]

We've all seen the fuss about them, but last night I saw my first one in 'real life', which got me thinking. Also today two of my friends were arguing about them on FB - one against any ban, the other claiming they are a symbol of oppression.

My view has pretty much always been that it's just a different type of swimsuit; no different to some women wearing bikinis and others wearing one-pieces. I'd always thought the bans in places like Cannes were all about the culture/assimilation issue; it hadn't really crossed my mind that the 'modesty' might be being forced on women.

What do you think?

Nigella you are completely missing the point.
Dressing modestly and behaving modestly are entirely different things
A prostitute could be covered from head to toe but not be considered modest in behaviour .......a woman shopping in Tesco in a bikini would be considered immodestly dressed , yet the same woman in the same bikini on most European beaches where topless sunbathing is acceptable would be considered covered up or modestly dressed. It's all in the context

You are confusing "appropriately dressed" with modesty. If I saw a woman in Tesco in a bikini (or a ball gown for that matter) I would think she was a bit, a bit out of place, inappropriately dressed to be shopping in Tesco. I would notthink she is "immodestly dressed".

Nigella made earlier in the thread the entirely valid point that there is really something very unpleasant, judgemental and nasty in introducing the concept of "modesty" in relation to what women wear. I agree with her.

"Modest " has a primary meaning of not being boastful- which is a good thing to be.

You are using the far more problematic meaning of "modest behaviour" which essentially refers only to women's sexual behaviour and how it is perceived.

We should not be buying into the idea that there are women who are "immodestly " or "modestly dressed"

I'm at a bit of a loss why you think it's all about your daughter too though

Extraordinary! where is any evidence of me thinking it's all about my daughter? Read my posts.

We should not be buying into the idea that there are women who are "immodestly " or "modestly dressed"

yes, this. And it's very relevant to this whole discussion.
Incidentally, the whole burkini thing (correct me if I'm wrong) seems to have hair coverage as an important component, therefore distinguishing it from many wet suits etc. Deep sea swimming gear of course does involve hats to cover the hair, but that's more to protect the hair and for safety, I would have thought. I'd like to know why a burkhini covers the hair, and can anyone reassure me that the burkha, burkini etc. is nothing to do with taking responsibility away from the men for inappropriate sexual thoughts or behaviour, and placing that responsibility on the woman?

(as an aside, @ Lass - when I mentioned rhinestone bikini v plain black bikini, I was coming from that old fashioned Jane Eyre angle you refer to in a pp).

"can anyone reassure me that the burkha, burkini etc. is nothing to do with taking responsibility away from the men for inappropriate sexual thoughts or behaviour, and placing that responsibility on the woman?"

No one needs to reassure their thoughts, beliefs or clothing to you. Get over yourself. There have been women on here who have said they CHOOSE to wear a Burkini, that is their choice and they are free to wear/believe what they wish. Just like I'm free to wear a bikini and not explain the reasoning behind it or 'reassure' someone why I do. How ridiculous.

It is not a ridiculous question. I have seen on MN posters vigorously defending the view that covering up serves the purpose of protecting women from lascivious men.

And that's their personal or religious belief lass. Everyone has different views, don't need to go around reassuring those who have different ones. If you don't agree, that's absolutely fine but all this 'reassure me' business is ridiculous.

So long as your belief doesn't infringe on someone's rights then shut up and let everyone live their lives how they want.

To coin a MN cliche phrase, did you mean to be so rude? If you object to the words "reassure me" then I take that back and replace it with "tell me." In any case, I would like someone to answer my question in a civil way if possible.

You're getting boring now and I don't actually mean that in a rude way!

Who cares if women cover up so men don't look at them? It's not affecting your life in any way, if that's what they choose to do that's fine, you don't have to cover up or have the same beliefs nor does your precious over mentioned DD.

hotdiggedy
If I had one I could at least give it a go. I wouldn't even mind if it took a long time to dry/ wasn't so comfortable.

Why would you choose to wear a garment like that.? A genuine question, I am looking to understand, not having a dig.

Who cares if women cover up so men don't look at them? It's not affecting your life in any way

It does not affect me personally and will not affect me as I will not be visiting any country where I would be required to wear a burka or a burkini. On a societal level it does affect women if people, men or women, buy into the idea of women should cover up so men can't look at them.

Someone's personal belief isn't 'buying in to an idea' that is their belief. If they believe they should cover up because they don't want men looking at their legs etc that's absolutely fine and a woman's prerogative.

As I mentioned before my Muslim friends husband looks down when talking to me or any other woman as that's part of his faith, that's fine too. We are all free to believe, wear or act the way we want to so long as it doesn't harm anybody else.

There are barely any countries in the world where they would compel a visiting woman to wear a burka. Saudi is about it. Even Iran would just be loose long clothing and a headscarf.
I lived in Qatar which is about second to Saudi for being a conservative culture the only expectation was shoulders and knees covered in the malls.
I don't know where people get the view from that large swathes of the Muslim world insist that every one burkas up. It's simply not true.

I hope someone can answer my question as it's quite important and in keen to understand about the hair covering.

and answer politely if possible

Nigella please stop with the dumb act. You know full well Muslim women are required to cover their hair and body because their religion requires them to do so, because it is deemed modest and so men do not stare at their bodies.

This is so predictable..

Muslim woman gives her reply, you jump on it like a fly on shit. "See, see! I told you Muslim women are oppressed the Burkini should be banned they all believe we are sluts for not covering our hair, my DD is modest blah blah"

Yawn.

surely that's just some/many Muslim women not all. i was at a training course with a Muslim woman recently and she had no hair covering.

and I'm still waiting for a polite reply but that's not forthcoming at least from you.

I do not know any Muslims personally and do not know about much about any religion.

I don't believe in banning the Burkini by the way, so I don't know why you are putting words into my mouth. I want to understand the philosophy behind the burkha and by extension the burkini, which is what we are discussing.

Not every Muslim wears a head covering, their also not allowed to drink alcohol but I've known of Muslims who have. I guess it's like with any religion, you get the ones who take it seriously and choose to live their lives around it and then you get the ones who have the belief but don't adhere to certain 'rules'.

Hotdiggedy please correct me if I'm wrong

I don't like the idea of "modesty" being forced upon me - or that poor little men would be so overcome with lust for by my hair or body that they wouldn't be able to control themselves. (As if.....) Meanwhile, as a sun-phobic Australian, I kind of like the idea for avoiding premature ageing!

or that poor little men would be so overcome with lust for by my hair or body that they wouldn't be able to control themselves.

yes this is a most outdated view of men IMO and rather patronising to them.

I would be happy to wear it user, because I don't want my body on show. Simple as. If it were banned it would just mean I wouldn't be able to go swimming-a shame as I don't see how it offends anyone. Yes strawberry, there are many different Muslims out there from those who were born into the religion but don't follow it to those who run their life by it. Just as with all religions I suppose. It is also common for a person to flit in how strong their beliefs are over their lifetime. I would be really upset if Islamic swimwear were to be banned!

I'm a Muslim woman who wears hijab every day and a ''burkini'' to swim in. I find some of the ideas on this thread really odd. The idea that men force us to cover up is insulting and ignorant, I wasn't even aware people still believed that. My husband actually feels bad that I'm covered and he isn't. I don't care what anyone else wears to swim in so I don't know why others are bothered what I wear...even if you don't agree with our beliefs can you agree we should have the freedom to believe them?
If Islamic swimwear was banned where I live I wouldn't suddenly don a bikini, I just wouldn't swim. I'd have to sit on the beach being sweaty and sad, watching everyone else having fun in the water. That sounds like oppression to me.

Absolutely Mermaid!

Mermaid How sad to fear future exclusion. I hope that never happens in the UK. We may not be perfect but I hope we never follow the French and Germans in dictating swimwear choices (or any other faith clothing choices).

I thought the French believed in "liberty, equality, fraternity" as their motto.

mermaid
Can i ask why you choose to wear a burka/burkini?you say your husband feels bad you cover up so its no pressure from him and i dont doubt that.
Is it because you think men will stare? And if so,so what? genuine question?
People stare at the burka more i bet.
I wear bikinis on hol and by the pool when abroad. I wouldnt walk down the street in one,even abroad. Im sure in this environment(swimming pool,beach) no one bats an eyelid. In a different situation it wouldnt perhaps be appropriate.
My interpretation of dressing 'modest'wouldnt be head to toe covering. It would maybe be a dress or trousers. Nothing too eye catching. Head to toe coverage is beyong modest.
And why are women trying to avoiid anyone(men?)looking at them. Its just natural to look and not necessarily sexual.

yukduck I'm pretty baffled by France at the moment, they clearly have much more important things than swimwear to be worrying about. I agree with you about Britain, I would be very surprised if even a niqab ban ever came in.