To push DD to apply to Cambridge?

[AllieinWonderland]

So I'm relatively new to posting on mumsnet, but have been a long time lurker, so if I mix up the lingo a bit then apologies!
DSS1 got 9As 3As at GCSE, 4 high As at AS level, and is on track to exceed his AAA offer for Oxford.
Oldest DD achieved 13A*s 2As and a B at GCSE (the B in music - she had a panic attack in the exam and it was on a tape so she was unable to get the time back) and is looking on track for 5 high As at AS level in French, English lit, history, physics, and art. She is seemingly good at almost everything (triathlons at county level and has previously played and trained younger children in cricket and basketball, plays the cello, the xylophone, and the clarinet, won a local photography competition, always gets lead roles in an amateur dramatics group and solos in choir) yet has always struggled severely with self esteem, and focuses on the things she is bad at: sees her B in music as the end of her chance of going to good universities, can't bake or cook to save her life despite much encouragement and teaching, is awful at tidying (she is happy to do it but ends up gradually making more of a mess and gets flustered. Again, I've tried forms of 'teaching' and noting has worked). These latter two issues have led her to thinking she needs to stay at home for university and she is driving me mad by saying she'll go to the local university, which is really not a very good one at all, and the only others she'll consider are those with offers of "BBC" or below.
She has finally settled on studying English literature, and I took charge and booked her on open days at Warwick, Edinburgh, Cambridge, and Durham, and her school took the 'Oxbridge' candidates to Oxford for a trip. She hated Durham, didn't like Edinburgh, thought Oxford and Warwick were okay, but loved Cambridge.
In spite of this she is refusing to consider applying, says it's a waste of an application.
I don't want to push her, but I do want her to apply because she clearly loved it and is more than capable. All of her teachers have been saying it since before I can remember, and she reads almost constantly.
Aibu to try and change her mind?
Sorry for the lack of coherence here, my mind a bit of a mess!

Op,
What an insightful thread. I'm glad that you feel that you're moving on - there's been some wonderfully insightful thoughts on here (as well as some foolish / thoughtless comments) and am so pleased that you have found some insights from it. Wishing you and your DD well

Refreshing to have a thread where someone asks a question and listens to the answers!

What an interesting thread - the thing that stands out for me is that even when you think you are being open minded and supportive OP your choice of language is very revealing - you demand, you let her, you agree to - why do you continue to treat your Dd like an extension of you? You are severely over invested and if that's you being the reasonable one - I can't imagine what your dh is like. I fear your controlling nature and your obsession with education has created this problem. I suggest you need to develop a coaching style - it'll be hard for you because you'll have to stand back while she makes mistakes and learns from them - the book "Tao of coaching Boost your effectiveness at work by inspiring and developing those around you " is an excellent guide.

StatelyChangers I believe there is a difference between letting her make her own mistakes, and trying to stop her mental health spiralling into an even worse state.

I am going to have to be proactive for now in order to get her to a point where making her own mistakes won't damage her beyond repair.

I'm not obsessed with education, she has become unhealthily obsessed with education and I failed to see that, so accepted it as healthy when it wasn't. I also don't believe I have a controlling nature - I wait to be asked for input before giving it. DD1 asks for a lot of input, such as that on universities, so I give a lot of input, and I hope that in the future she feels this amount of input isn't needed from me, and feels confident enough to stand on her own feet and make her own mistakes. Yet I doubt that can happen until her PTSD is properly dealt with.

I think her health needs to be the priority, and having left her to try to cope with it alone for far too long, I do intend to be the one to book her meetings with specialists etc and (tentatively - maybe even subtly) start conversations about it. I don't think a 17(!!!) year old should have to do that alone. It's not a mistake she should have to make.

Getting far too drunk and vomiting all over the sofa, yes. Applying to the wrong uni course and dropping out so she can do something totally different, yes. Not doing anything about mental health issues that pushes her to a point of breakdown? No.

I suggest you read the bloody thread statelychangers before you spout your pseudo advice. Eat this as you're reading.

IMO, the only careers where it matters which university you went to, are medicine and law. Other than that, let her choose herself. It is her life, not yours OP.

I do see what what she wants (which is English lit at Cambridge, though she believes herself to be incapable) is quite clearly not what she needs - despite her stellar academic record and crazy ability

As others have said, university (whichever she chooses) is not the issue here. It's her fragile mental health which leads her to believe herself "incapable" despite all the solid evidence to the contrary.

Frankly, she is not a "teachable" student at the moment in university terms. University students need to get rid of the false modesty that our school system seems to encourage, especially for girls, and they need to start developing a more mature ability to assess themselves professionally. It's one of the toughest things they have to learn - that by the time they graduate, they should not be seeking their tutors' approval, but they should be self-reflective and realistically self-assessing.

Someone who catastrophises - "I'm no good" in order to seek reassurance (which I think is part of what your DD does) will not be in a position to learn independently in the way that a talented excellent university student needs to learn.

And I'm afraid it sounds as though you unwittingly encourage this catastrophising by your constant closeness & reassurance (it may of course be quite different IRL, not written down). She really really needs good therapy. I understand the sense of helplessness & stuckness in an abusive marriage (one only has to read the Relationships Board here), but you also have to recognise the harm it did to your children. You may have been helpless and abused, but you were the grownup, and your children were only children. I find it extraordinary to read how detached you are from the idea of deep lasting harm that you staying in your abusive marriage did to your children. But I guess that's a coping mechanism, and the real blame lies with the bastard who was their father.

However, you can't assume that because you coped (only just, I'd say) the children will also cope.

For me, this is part of the other huge issue - yours & her co-dependence. I know you resist this, and I understand that it could be the effect of writing things down for an anonymous internet message board. It may be different IRL. Except that writing anonymously can be a kind of revelation of truth for yourself.

The other thing to say about this thread is that sometimes, when you ask people's advice, and hear things you don't want to hear, or have a gut feeling about, it's worth listening to your own instinctive response.

Try to work out what your emotional, instinctive response is. I'd say that THAT is what the real "problem" is.

What is it that you want to protest most strongly against from what people have said to you on this thread? (Please don't answer this question here, take it away & think about it). I'd bet that that is what needs thought & work & therapy. The depth of your denial is indication of the extent of the issue, I'd say ...

You're not stupid OP, you have been doing your best in stressful circumstances, honestly that's all any of us can do. I can see how your daughter's focus on academia had become yours in a way- you are trying to help her and make her happy, and that is what she says she wants. It's not you, it's her, and you are trying your best to support her, all the while supporting your other children and dealing with what happened to you.

Don't be down on yourself. There is nothing but love in your behaviour. Carry on being the same devoted, engaged parent, just with a slight tweak of perspective.

I think your willingness to seek outside opinions, consider them and act is impressive. I think you are a force to be reckoned with, frankly.

Be kind to yourself

DancingUpTheWall thank you for your thoughts. I do agree we're too co dependent currently, and I hope the relationship shifts and will also look at ways to stimulate that. And also your points about university are very valuable - she definitely isn't ready for university now and I doubt she will be in a year, and maybe she never will be. I am just interested to see what she chooses to do, but don't want her to make a rash decision based on PTSD and low self esteem, so mental health will definitely be coming first - education second, much as I know she'll oppose. She is far from ready for the things some 17 year olds are, at no fault of her own. But stepping back to watch her make either the biggest mistake or the best decision of her life will be rewarding for me, because either way it will show that she has found the confidence to trust herself and make that big choice without asking me a million questions a day and desiring my in depth input on every little aspect of the choice.
I will really consider your question, and thank you for your help.

And thank you for the words of kindness LittleGreyAuditor. They are encouraging to hear at this slightly uncertain, tearful time.

Good luck, Allie

A couple things further to think about? And maybe ask your DD about ... And this is me speaking as a professor of EngLit. so it's textual analysis.

A lot of the language you use to report your DD's feelings about things - places, courses, lecturers - is very strong and in the same catastrophising vein, very black or white. She"hates" "scorns" despises" places. She despises people with MH issues. She finds lecturers "boring" or "unimpressive."

This is strong language. If I were reading your posts as a novel, I'd be picking out the unarticulated narratives and meanings - that your DD despises herself is obvious. I'd also be wondering about the all or nothing language, and the certainty with which a 17 year old judges and dismisses university staff and courses run by people far more knowledgeable and expert than she is.

Again, not to answer here, but could you ask your DD about the strength of language she uses. Could you (gently) suggest that a lecturer with a PhD & several years of teaching 18 year olds - no matter how unimpressive they may appear to her - may have something to offer your DD that she needs to learn? It's often the things we reject that we need - and re-reading all your posts on this thread as I have just done (EngLit academics always re-read texts), what strikes me is just what a vulnerable self-hating person is at the centre of it. Gosh I want to wrap both of you in a warm fluffy blanket and simultaneously shake you both into some sort of good sense.

I won't go on about it, but what you write about her father is a bit shocking. But then, I was not brought up in an abusive family, nor have I been in an abusive relationship although I know that it's only luck not my superiority.

I do hope you find a way through, and I hope your daughter has the courage to step off the treadmill for a bit.

Congratulations to your DD, those results are brilliant and I'm glad she is happy. I just wanted to wish you well for the future and reiterate that you've managed this thread remarkably well, given the personal attacks. I also admire you for experiencing such tragedy in your life and coming through it.

I hope you can all find your own sense of peace.

Haven't rtft but I didn't apply for Oxbridge as I was too scared of letting my parents down if I didn't get in. Had massive confidence and anxiety issues. Sort of regret that I didn't have the confidence to go for it and based decision on protecting parents (had all the grades etc).

All best wishes to you and your daughter.

Fantastic results! Very gently and obviously with no rush, consider Durham. I think you're not as far as some of the other universities you've mentioned and the collegiate system= good pastoral care. Could you visit, when the time feels better, some of them?

Allie, I have rtft — but, if nothing else, Cambridge's pastoral care is pretty weak all-round, and sometimes downright bad. (I just graduated, and there's a huge controversy surrounding it.) It really is the last place I would want my DD, if she struggled with the vast & complex issues yours has. I hope this doesn't sound condescending, but there really is a strong chance she won't get what she needs there.

If I was were you are at the moment I would grab daughter have a sit down and chat and go through the Internet looking for therapists in your area. Someone that has a mix of a few things not just a cbt specialist.

Uni will always be there and if she can get her head in a better place then she will achieve so much more when she is actually ready for uni (she would be more likely to apply and enjoy Cambridge)

I think from your first few posts about your DD mental health is sounded a bit like you just didn't understand it and so didn't care but obviously you do and I think some posters are just getting a bit caught up in the slightly blasè sounding posts.

It's obvious you love your daughter very much and I'm sure it will all fall into place eventually just maybe take some time out to get round the mental health issues first.

I've heard fantastic things about Oxford's pastoral care this past year- so v current.

I think Cambridge - especially Cambridge English Lit - is making a huge effort with pastoral care, and I believe things are changing rapidly for the better.

Also wanted to respond to this:

Frankly, she is not a "teachable" student at the moment in university terms. University students need to get rid of the false modesty that our school system seems to encourage, especially for girls, and they need to start developing a more mature ability to assess themselves professionally.

I see where this is coming from, but I disagree with the emphasis on students 'needing' to learn these things, especially in a gendered context. In my view, academics need to learn to support students who have been taught not to assess themselves in this way, and especially those who've been taught 'false modesty'. It's not a one-way process. I don't think that makes a student 'unteachable'. I also think Cambridge English Lit is currently extremely aware of this as a serious issue - as I'm sure are lots of other universities. At the moment, Athena Swan is being rolled out from STEM subjects to Arts, and since that concentrates on gender equality, it is a big incentive to academics to think through these issues.

I have recent experience of Cambridge and would say pastoral care there is patchy, at best, though crisis support (counselling and psychiatry) is pretty good. I think both Oxford and Cambridge will necessarily be a bit patchy as so much happens via the college and it will depend on how good their systems are.

I also think it's unfair to expect the university department, and to a lesser extent the college dons, to do much pastoral care of students unless they've specifically taken on that role (some colleges have a team of fellows available on call for emergencies, or a tutor for women, or similar). The Eng Lit department and its staff are there to teach Eng Lit, not to look after students with mental health problems of any degree of seriousness. Academics are already seriously overworked with research and teaching and it's unfair to expect them to do much more, though lots (particularly women academics) report that they are having to get involved with students' problems by default - I certainly found this as a young woman academic. And really diagnosable MH problems like PTSD are almost certainly outside their expertise. I wouldn't send a vulnerable student to university in the hope that the academics will look after her pastorally or that the pastoral care system will be up to taking care of her welfare.

Otherwise, I second others' comments that I really respect how you have taken the comments in this thread, OP, and wish you and your daughter all the very best.

olives - I see what you're saying (and absolutely agree that it's important for academics to identify professional help for pastoral issues, because we're not qualified). But I think some support for students' mental health is part of any teaching academic's job. It certainly would come into discussions of regular teaching issues such as how to mark exams, wouldn't it?

I just graduated from Cambridge, studying English Lit. It isn't all bad, of course. The PP who said their emergency counselling is very good is right (although by emergency we're looking at a week - nothing to be sniffed at though.) But, unlike at Exeter/York (I don't know about Durham), you can't get extensions. I thought, when I was there, the practical support was lacking. And the level of work is really incomparable. The sheer volume of work is much higher at Cambridge (my best friends went to other universities, doing English Lit, so this isn't snobbish supposition.) Yet (like all English Lit degrees) the days are also very unstructured.

You are making the right decision about the gap year. I hope your DD agrees. I'm simply just offering a counterpoint as to why (while Cambridge has many virtues) I think it would be a disaster waiting to happen to send her somewhere like that, especially to push her to go.

It is very rare to be granted an extension on coursework (which is a small element of the Cambridge course), but you can defer, and - given the supervision system - you have much greater flexibility to defer contact time, than you would at a university in which teaching is mostly carried out in classes.

DD is at Cambridge and has had some anxiety and depression. The pastoral care at her college has been excellent. In retrospect I am sure that the issues predate going to Uni and she has had escalating self-esteem problems since lower sixth, which no amount of academic or extra-curricular success could change. Being in an environment surrounded by super-talented people probably just escalated things.

If we could go back, I think a gap year would have been just what she needed. However, she is much better (meds and counselling) has found her niche and lost the feeling of being an intellectual imposter.

I haven't read the whole thread, apologies. Like your DD, I had an unconventional time in my teens (though in my case it was abuse, homelessness and then addiction). I did really well in my A-levels, went to Cambridge to do Lit, but dropped out very rapidly and went elsewhere. I felt strongly I was the wrong class (this was years ago, things have changed instutionally, but there will still be a dominance of very middle class kids, which is significant when your whole lifeworld is much more working class). It's fair to say I never really fitted in as an undergraduate because the thoughts and feelings of a highly privileged 18 year old leaving home for the first time were really alien to me, having slept rough and been in some really tight situations so much earlier. I imagine your DD's experience will similarly separate her from the majority. I really loved the work though, did really well, ended up getting an MA, then PhD, then going into academia, leaving, re-entering...

I would argue - strongly - that unlearning the modesty that the school system inculcates is a process, not a moment, and that it is done as and while you learn and grow and is probably something that is a bit of a life's work. It took me 10 years to gain some confidence, way after I finished my doctorate at 24. Throughout the university system I was in awe of academics to a bonkers degree, and very lacking in confidence to vocalise my thoughts and feelings in case they were 'stupid'. (I wrote instead). At the same time, I knew that I had things to say, and I had confidence, from somewhere deep inside, in my ability to say them. It sounds to me like your DD is similar.

Things that helped me: counselling, talking therapy was REALLY useful. I realise there is a lot of skepticism about this, but I honestly don't think I'd have made it through without it. Finding academics who truly understood where I was from, who were also working class (my degree, MA supervisor, also the first guy to give me an academic job!). Finding a mission in encouraging and supporting other young girls going through similar issues (this sounds like it should only be attempted when you are fully sorted out, but it is two-way and I found it tremendously helpful in understanding my own experience). I wonder if some kind of mentoring/teaching role would help your DD perhaps while she takes a bit of a break to sort out the MH issues? Having some kind of care/teaching for someone else is a powerful thing.

The most important thing, though, was independence. Learning to be yourself is a terribly difficult process sometimes. And it is not without risk. So I understand your urge to wrap your DD in cotton wool and protect her from the outside world, and I am more than willing to concede that a year out might be helpful. BUT no more than a year - sometimes what we need to learn is that we can ride through things, that we get knocked and we recover, that actually a lot of the things we might be anxious about are things we have out of perspective in the grand scheme of the world. It is only possible to get true resilience with independence. I speak as someone with a sibling who has been destroyed by over-cossetting, control and codependent care, when she needed to be out in the world learning for herself that she was strong and resilient. I am not saying you are that mother, but there is a possibility here that you could become her. And that is a danger to be aware of!!

*(so my complaint about crisis support was not meant to suggest that I expected my teachers to act as babysitters/therapists. I just don't think Cambridge is well adjusted to those whose mental health may significantly impinges on their work, as pastoral care and academic work is kept EXTREMELY separate. This isn't the case at other unis.)