To push DD to apply to Cambridge?

[AllieinWonderland]

So I'm relatively new to posting on mumsnet, but have been a long time lurker, so if I mix up the lingo a bit then apologies!
DSS1 got 9As 3As at GCSE, 4 high As at AS level, and is on track to exceed his AAA offer for Oxford.
Oldest DD achieved 13A*s 2As and a B at GCSE (the B in music - she had a panic attack in the exam and it was on a tape so she was unable to get the time back) and is looking on track for 5 high As at AS level in French, English lit, history, physics, and art. She is seemingly good at almost everything (triathlons at county level and has previously played and trained younger children in cricket and basketball, plays the cello, the xylophone, and the clarinet, won a local photography competition, always gets lead roles in an amateur dramatics group and solos in choir) yet has always struggled severely with self esteem, and focuses on the things she is bad at: sees her B in music as the end of her chance of going to good universities, can't bake or cook to save her life despite much encouragement and teaching, is awful at tidying (she is happy to do it but ends up gradually making more of a mess and gets flustered. Again, I've tried forms of 'teaching' and noting has worked). These latter two issues have led her to thinking she needs to stay at home for university and she is driving me mad by saying she'll go to the local university, which is really not a very good one at all, and the only others she'll consider are those with offers of "BBC" or below.
She has finally settled on studying English literature, and I took charge and booked her on open days at Warwick, Edinburgh, Cambridge, and Durham, and her school took the 'Oxbridge' candidates to Oxford for a trip. She hated Durham, didn't like Edinburgh, thought Oxford and Warwick were okay, but loved Cambridge.
In spite of this she is refusing to consider applying, says it's a waste of an application.
I don't want to push her, but I do want her to apply because she clearly loved it and is more than capable. All of her teachers have been saying it since before I can remember, and she reads almost constantly.
Aibu to try and change her mind?
Sorry for the lack of coherence here, my mind a bit of a mess!

I think the best thing for your daughter, to be absolutely honest, is to take a gap year as a mental health break. Because if you have to be heavily involved in the process of even choosing a uni, how is she going to manage it alone when she has to actually go?

I was pushed to apply to Oxbridge and was very similar, I think, to your daughter. When the time came to take up my place, I just couldn't do it and ended up going to my 2nd choice. (Still a Russell group, but a bit less formal) I did enjoy it and come out with a 1st, but what I really needed was a break from academic pressure, after which I might quite happily have taken up my Oxbridge place after all.

I fail to understand what it is about Oxbridge that people get so caught up with. I have never met any individual that I have been particularly impressed with who has been an Oxbridge graduate.

I also think people find what is right for them or at least what will make them happy if left to choose that direction themselves. The OP sounds like there is a lot of pressure and that would have killed me. Since I stopped listening to my parents and did my own thing, I've been a lot happier. Happiness is worth more than a bit of paper from Oxbridge, and like I said, I am very rarely impressed by an Oxbridge graduate anyway. There seriously is more to life. Don't break her because you want her to follow in your footsteps. It's not a contest.

A gap year doesn't have to mean a year at home.
It could be anything ,anywhere.
She is very used to a lot of structure so a gap year to both refresh after the rigours of exam pressure over the last three years and to make sure she is making choices she is comfortable with ....she is interested in History , maybe volunteer for a dig somewhere for part of it for example , a few bites of life experience might be valuable and perhaps seem more attractive than seeing a gap year as a year "off".

I quite understand her wanting to avoid "party cities" Royal Holloway was mentioned , it's a good option but accomadation is a bit of a nightmare cost wise after the first year in halls as its so close to London, lovely campus though not too big and a nice historical feel to it which she might like, Bristol has the spread out bitty campus but a really nice vibe as a city as well as an excellent reputation (my friends son regretted only having Bristol as insurance with UCA as first choice and ultimately went to Bristol and loved it), UEA is definitely worth a look , really good atmosphere and strong on English Lit (my brother went there as a mature student) . The feeling I'm getting is avoid the big city campuses (although York is worth a look) but there's so much choice it's probably doing her head in.

I do think the fact she's an August baby plus the residual MH issues that a year talking stock and recharging before starting uni would be a positive for her but selling it to her after grammar school academic pushing always looking to the next stage might be a tough job. There needs to be more to it than a year "off" for her to see the value in it.

The fact that you took charge , chose the open days and chose your preference rings real alarm bells! I think she needs a gap year and to get away from home and find out who she is and what she really wants in life.

Allie if she is a summer baby it is very possible if she got accepted by Cambridge that it would be a deferred offer anyway. That happened to a girl I know for the same subject last year.

On the other hand, with her excellent grades it's very possible she would get unconditional offers at other unis - Birmingham & UEA do this a lot at present.

And she really shouldn't worry about the B in music at GCSE. My dd also had a B in a creative subject & still got an Oxbridge offer for a very competitive subject. Missed her place on results day but that's another story.

I think perhaps if you had posted this in the Higher Education section it might have been better...

You apply for deferred offers.

My Dneice sounds similar to your dd. Could probably have gone anywhere at all. She found the right place for her doing comparative literature at Canterbury. It was just the right mix for her. Found the staff supportive, found the right, like minded friends and all that. Got her First. She was far happier as a big fish in a small pond. Walked into a decent graduate job as well.

Have not rtft but comepletely agree that your dd will die of boredom doing English at a not very good university. And while it's fine not to want pressure, the desire to be a big fish in a small pond is not great. Actually although cambridge is pressured it also is a v supportive environment, or can be. Academic staff know you personally etc. I wonder if one of the girls colleges would suit her well.

If she had fallen in love with somewhere crap, would you still be pushing her? Or is it just because it's Cambridge?

(I get the Oxbridge thing: not getting into Oxford is still the only real regret of my life. But I also know a few people who really did not enjoy Cambridge (my ex nearly committed suicide there, despite coming top of his year)).

Maybe she knows herself better than you know her?

The real issue is the confidence, not where she goes, she's nearly and adult and wants to be at home as she doesn't trust/rate herself in the world.

I'd be careful as once someones' had a nervous illness it can ruin the rest of their lives.

If she has a year off she will already have her results and can go travelling, leave the family unit for a bit and work a bit so she knows what she wants.

Cambridge is beautiful and if she has the chance to go there its great but she could crumble under the pressure. Its way more pressure than A levels and way more things for her to beat herself up about when you aren't there to support her. (especially as it sounds like you support alot at the moment).

The other thing is, you still need a plan b - what if she doesn't get in? I was top of my year by miles in English, top grades etc, but still fluffed the interview - hopefully your DD will get exactly what she wants, but you do need a suitable back up if not. Good luck to her!

Oxbridge isn't for everyone. Both DSs went to open days and both came home saying it wasn't for them.

Some love tradition and others find it odd and rather elitist.

Both went to RG universities and enjoyed the experience. DH had a place at Oxford way back in the 60s but opted for UCL instead so it must be a family trait.

DS1 has since worked at Oxford and now works at Cambridge (avoiding all the traditions he can)

She needs to be making the decisions and taking ownership of her life - it is natural to be interested and supportive, but she is an adult and needs to be in control - it will go seriously pear shaped if not. If she does go to university she'll be applying for jobs in 3 years time. Will you be arranging interviews for her???

If she is lacking confidence then she might be better to take a year out and apply when she knows her grades. That way universities would hardly look at her GCSE results and even Cambridge would over look a B in music if she had stellar a level results.

A year out would help develop life skills and confidence. She would need to do something constructive. Bumming about at home doing nothing would not help a university application. Maybe she needs some time to be sure what she wants to study.

University is as much about developing life skills and confidence as academics. It's understandable she is scared, but lots of kids of her age can't cook and are untidy.

Frankly, Cambridge won't care about a B in Music with 15 (is it 15?) other subjects at A/A*, anyway.

All of this focus on agonising over whether her (excessive) exam scores are enough seems to me to be the problem.

Let her make her own mind up. My DS is, in my opinion, capable of getting a place at Oxbridge but he has decided that he doesn't want to apply to either as he likes the look of the content of degree courses elsewhere. I'm fine with that because he's made an informed decision and he is the one who will have to live and study there not me.

Having a DS who is happy and not under intense pressure (any more than all A level students are) is worth far more than any perceived reflected glory of having a child at Oxbridge.

Why did you see the need to post all their achievements like that? A simple question would have been sufficient? Let your almost adult child make their own decisions and support them in that rather than putting the pressure on.

I see she is interested in Aberystwyth and I would definitely recommend she take a look. It has very high student satisfaction rates and would be good for someone with low self esteem as the culture is quite laid back and very friendly. It is also beautiful! I didn't go there myself (I grew up there) but both my parents are academics there and I know quite a few people in the English department and they are excellent. My DH is also an alumni of the uni and had a fantastic time. I on the other hand went to Durham and was miserable. I would rather have gone to a less prestigious uni and been happy.

Dear OP, please listen to yourself for a change. Im quoting your words here, to give you a chance to see what is happening, where at least some of the pressure is coming from

She fears being rejected, even though I've said countless times it doesn't matter XXX as long as XXX, and pointed out XXX

I have never met any individual that I have been particularly impressed with who has been an Oxbridge graduate.

I'd better make sure I don't meet you in real life Jelly. But seriously you are absolutely right about the Oxbridge obsession. The trouble is state schools are now coming under pressure to "prove" that they can get their top students into Oxbridge. I think its perfectly reasonable for a state school to be asked about their Russell Group entries because that's a rough guide to how well they can prepare their most able students but singling out Oxbridge in this way just means pupils will be put under pressure.

Read an interesting book lately called something like "How to Raise an Adult". It was American but very relevant nonetheless. Apparently the best known US College Ranking list actually ranks the colleges/unis on how many people apply to them and how hard it is to get into them. So of course everyone sees this and thinks "I must get into those" which pushes them higher up the rankings and so on and so on. The person writing the book was a former advisor at Stanford and says many applicants now have simply applied to the Top Five on the list with no thought as to whether they would actually like the course or the institution.

I can see us going the same way here.

The key is just convincing her that there are universities that offer English lit but aren't hugely competitive so she doesn't have to fear rejection - especially not with 13As!*

The actual key is that she needs to get better and pretending she isn't unwell is not going to make it so.

Allie, I'm going to say something that I hope you don't mind, and possibly bring up something not mentioned before. What does your DD want to do after university? Does she have a particular job/career/profession/vocation in mind?

It also sounds as though your DD is driven and not because you are the driving force - it could be a control mechanism for her as a result of feeling unable to change or help her father's behaviour before such a devastating end, and hence 'failure'. What does the counsellor say about the university situation? Does s/he know? I think it's a huge red flag. Hence I agree with all the other posters that suggest prioritising her mental wellbeing.

It is difficult to be able to take a step back and see the bigger picture, but please do so. It's so much more than just picking a university.

Best of luck to you both

Sounds like you live near me op!

Bradford isn't a bad uni but the city isn't the nicest (apologies to anyone from Bradford).

When I first read your post I thought YABU, but having thought a bit more I think you're right to encourage her-however ultimately the decision is hers and you need to accept whatever she decides.

I've only read the OP so far but it sounds very much to me like the poor girl is completely burned out already and is feeling that she just cannot maintain the momentum of her considerable successes so far. It's obviously a family where the children are pushed hard, expected to perform at a very high level and be very accomplished and she's done all that.

She might just be (in her own non-rebellious way) be sending a message to ask you to just back off. I think a gap year would be a very good idea with no pressure to apply anywhere just yet, not even deferred.

A year to just exhale a bit will help crystallise things for her, enable her to become more independent, more confident and grow in the other ways that are not so easily measured as academic success. Hopefully after a bit of time out she'll be able to think more clearly about what she really wants without everyone else putting their oar in.

And to add a personal anecdote, I remember telling a teacher at my grammar school that I wanted to be a primary school teacher. Her response was "I think you can do better than that". The irony is being a primary teacher would have been a much more stimulating, rewarding and better paid job than the one I'm in now.

Hello!

Maybe she should take a Gap Year. Then she can work out where she wants to go and what she wants to do.

I went to Cambridge (New Hall, now Murray Edwards). It was not an easy experience moving from being a top school student to an "average" Cambridge student. For my confidence I would have perhaps been better off being a big fish in a small pond.

A Gap Year would give her time and space to consider her goals, and that would lead to a sense of ownership of her decisions.

Good luck!