That having a bikini wax shouldn't be a necessary part of any job?

[ThatsWotSheSaid]

I've been watching the amazing gymnastics at the olympics and every time I can't help but wonder if they are all happy to have such revealing gym costumes. I would hate to have a camera doing a slow mo when I'm legs akimbo in the air wearing so little even if the camera angles seem to be discrete.

I have tried to look up if there is a rule about the cut and if they wanted could they wear little shorts but I can't find anything. I did read if they remove a wedgie they get marked down?!

AIBU to think that in this day and age it seems a bit odd that these elite athletes need to be so scantily clad and that they probably have more to worry about than waxing, ingrowing hairs and itchiness in the run up to the games?

Ok so we are illogical, can't read and are desperate simply because we disagree? That's respectful

Again, simply made up. Ok, I should have said 'don't seem able to follow logic in this instance.'

Neither of us really know just how easy it would be for someone to wear tights. I think the point is that the outfits may well have weeded out a lot of the people at the beginning, so we will not know. I was very good at high jump and sprinting but hated having to jump with my ass hanging out, so I drifted away from it. If I'd had the choice of longer tight shorts maybe I would have carried on. Maybe things have changed now but it's an illustration of the principle.

Of course the attitude to women's bodies and pubic hair is not the fault of gymnastics or whatever sport, but they don't need to perpetuate it.

Exactly Binky

As a society, we should do whatever we can to dispel unhelpful views of women's bodies.

That includes not accusing women of 'frothing' when they flag up potential inequality.

I spent much of my adolescence in a self-hating fog due to body issues that included a severe anxiety about difficult-to-remove body hair.

I don't want the same for my daughters.

But unfortunately we do live in a culture where it's commonplace for someone to wander onto a forum and proclaim that it's 'normal' for all women to remove all body hair. By extension, to have hair is abnormal...

About that "normal" thing. The figure of 84% has been quoted twice, and conflated with all at least once.

I suppose 16% may strike some participants in this thread as an insignificant minority. Right, fair enough. Except, have you ever noticed the amount of scare stories in the media about the number of Muslims in the UK? Sly little implications that "they" will "take over" and all that?

Yet Muslims only constituted 4.5% of the UK population, according to the last census. It might be 5% now.

Odd the differing attitudes, isn't it?

1. The women can wear leggings. See one of the Chinese team this year. They can also wear a unitard, which would cover them from wrists to ankles. None of them seem to choose the unitard which I think probably shows it's less comfortable. The option is there though so it just isn't true to say they have no choice. The unitard option is specifically written into the judging rules so clubs know it's acceptable. There's a lot of assertions on this thread that the gymnasts have to conform - I have no evidence at all this us the case apart from mumsnet posters (who may not know what they say they know).
2. They don't all wear a full face of make up, and they aren't all young. See murakami and chusovitina.
3. Girls who are novice level are really welcome to train and compete in normal sports attire.

Maybe (again, another assertion with no evidence) sone girls are put off gymnastics by the idea they might get to elite level and have to wear leotards. But there are many more girls who are inspired and take up gym. Given the problems we have with girls doing sport, and obesity surely that's a good thing?

I still don't understand why we need to scapegoat gymnastics for the wider issues of acceptable femininity?

Felas

I don't think anyone is scapegoating gymnastics; the OP was simply based on gymnastics, presumably as it was on the TV around the time she posted!

Gymnastics was on TV at the time, hence the gym being the subject of the OP and main sport discussed. Two bronzes that night!

I can see me continuing to debate this as its become pointless when those not in the know of top level sports try and rare it apart.

Oh yes. Particular posters who don't have any knowledge of the sport they're attempting to debate becomes rather pointless and laborious. "Oh but we don't need to know anything about gymnastics ffs" Well actually you do if you want to make genuine changes otherwise it's all just hot air.

Fela I have enjoyed your informed and informative posts on this subject.

Thanks lass

About that "normal" thing. The figure of 84% has been quoted twice, and conflated with all at least once.

Yes, and the 84% figure also comes from a study of female undergraduate students at particular US colleges, so is very unlikely to be accurately reflective of UK women of all ages (or even under-35s) anyway. The other study linked early in this thread, of under-35s in the UK, got a figure of around 50%, but that isn't so quotable.

1. The women can wear leggings. See one of the Chinese team this year. They can also wear a unitard, which would cover them from wrists to ankles. None of them seem to choose the unitard which I think probably shows it's less comfortable. The option is there though so it just isn't true to say they have no choice. The unitard option is specifically written into the judging rules so clubs know it's acceptable. There's a lot of assertions on this thread that the gymnasts have to conform - I have no evidence at all this us the case apart from mumsnet posters (who may not know what they say they know).

But it's not a great choice, is it? It seems to be either nothing or more or something that covers most of the leg. Why not shorts, or a leotard with shorts legs, or one that isn't cut so high on the leg?

"Ok so we are illogical, can't read and are desperate simply because we disagree? That's respectful

Again, simply made up. Ok, I should have said 'don't seem able to follow logic in this instance.' "

You said illogical, Merchant said the other two.

If you think we're making gymnastics into a scapegoat, you're (again) misunderstanding.

Gymnastics (and other sports) can be symptomatic of deeper issues.

I asked someone up thread (sorry, i forget who) whether they actually believed in sexism. Don't think they replied. But the thing is we all know about the fucked up attitudes to female bodies we have in our culture. We have the whole history of page 3, swimsuit rounds in beauty pageants, wolf-whistling etc. Do you think all that stops at the gymnasium door? Really? That's incredibly naive.

Some version of sexism is going to have worked itself into a sport that focuses on women in leotards. Our job is to be aware of that, to be on the lookout for ways to make the sport more inclusive, less focused in female appearance.

The OP was quite speculative in wondering if that could be an issue in gymnastics. I think what we've learned, and what's most depressing, is that those involved in the sports are determined to shut down any genuine discussion by accusing us of 'frothing'.

Sexism is woven into the very fabric of our society. Is it really likely that it will have bypassed the sparkly world of gymnastics?

Ok, I'm not misunderstanding at all, as you'd know if you read my posts. I totally agree sexism is woven into society. I don't agree that gymnastics attire is wholly influenced by the male gaze. I also don't think any sport can be responsible for changing societies view of body hair. I don't think the answer to society not accepting body hair is to get girls who don't want to shave to cover it. How much of the Egyptian beach volleyball costume is driven by practicality and how much is driven by Egypt's patriarchal views of modesty and appropriate dress?

I think the issue is much wider than gymnastics but some posts on here have suggested gym is unusual and extreme, hence my scapegoating comment.

Some other people on here have been extremely critical of gymnastics and completely OTT, specifically Lyndas delightful comment about men getting their rocks off and gymnasts showing their labia. It's disgusting and puts me in mind of other ways women are shamed.

No, I don't think most people have suggested gym is weirdly extreme... but it's an area which is going to be a danger zone for the sexism that you admit exists.

No one has said the outfits are wholly dictated by the male gaze, and the only reason some of us have argued so vociferously is because certain posters won't acknowledge that there's even the tiniest whisper of sexism at play. That sort of denial sets feminism back decades.

I have not suggested that the clothing in gymnastics is a massive sexist problem. I only entered the debate because I detest the modern tendency to actively deny sexism and to imply that women who can spot everyday, insidious hints of sexism are somehow mad and hysterical.

The OP asked a valid question. The way volleyballmum and others freaked out at it was depressing.

Volleyball mum 'freaked out' as you put it because you and another poster descended into directing insults at her. It was really very unkind. I'm not surprised she hasn't returned.

Merchant, you can't possibly debate a sport you know nothing about, and you're not listening to any replies or explanations and have no constructive suggestions, just repeating and repeating yourself with no real point... It's getting tiring for us posters who do have knowledge of the industry to have to keep on explaining how it all works. I don't think I've even engaged with you for those reasons, because you haven't made any real points...

But it's not a great choice, is it? It seems to be either nothing or more or something that covers most of the leg. Why not shorts, or a leotard with shorts legs, or one that isn't cut so high on the leg?

The high cut is favoured, as has been mentioned, to give a longer leg line. There are restrictions surrounding leotards, and the cut, of course, but I think it's something like, off the top of my head, not beyond the hip bone. It (with some few exceptions) seems to be prevalent in these extremely high profile, televised comps. In 'ordinary squad regionals and nationals there is much more variety in uniform, with the shorts and unitards and leggings being worn by some. Leotards favoured but not perhaps so high cut.

meck kindly point out where I directed insults at volleyballmum.

When you've done that, perhaps you can consider the following :

Far more reasonable posters than you have acknowledged that sexism exists and that it, to some extent, permeates all areas of life. It is ludicrous to suggest that a sport involving highly made up women and leotards is magically exempt from any sexism.

Do you feel like engaging with that point?

Hilariously, you don't even know how much I know about gymnastics or volleyball, as I haven't said. I have tried to point out to you that this is largely irrelevant because we can SEE the outfits, and various people have quoted from the rules. All YOU keep saying is 'oh, you wouldn't understand because you're not directly involved in the sport. ' That's no argument at all.

And, you know, sometimes it takes others, like the OP, to shine a light on an issue that those directly involved can't actually see because they're too close to the issues and (in your case) too determined not to see.

Do you really think there is no chance at all that the outfits will put off young girls? Really?

Just to reiterate, meck, because you seem unaware that I've made any points. ..

This is my point: it is a good idea to be aware if the ways in which sports such as gymnastics might a) contribute to certain unhealthy attitudes and b) exclude certain otherwise very promising athletes.

That clear enough?

You seem to be lamenting the lack of any 'constructive' suggestions from me, as if it might fall to me to re - design the rule book (ironic when you have explained how I know nothing).

My suggestion is this: when people like the OP suggest we take a closer look at pertinent issues like this, actually think about the issue instead of going on the defensive and dismissing anyone who suspects the sport might have the odd flaw.

You were nasty and unkind yesterday along with another poster, pointed out, and named, by others here also. I was called 'pathetic' (very wounding) for reporting the behaviour.

Far more reasonable posters than you have acknowledged that sexism exists and that it, to some extent, permeates all areas of life. It is ludicrous to suggest that a sport involving highly made up women and leotards is magically exempt from any sexism.

Obviously sexism permeates all areas of life. I think few would disagree. Did you have any other point beyond this very general obvious one? Any ideas for positive change within one of the sports mentioned, especially the one mentioned in the OP (gymnastics), because there's little to discuss otherwise.

Righto Bert. Read back what they said to VB mum and other posters, one who had her post misinterpreted and was told she wasn't qualified to post. I'm not the only person to have pointed out Merchants, and the other poster (the other poster was 'shouting' at one point)

Just to reiterate, meck, because you seem unaware that I've made any points

Please don't. You still haven't.