That having a bikini wax shouldn't be a necessary part of any job?

[ThatsWotSheSaid]

I've been watching the amazing gymnastics at the olympics and every time I can't help but wonder if they are all happy to have such revealing gym costumes. I would hate to have a camera doing a slow mo when I'm legs akimbo in the air wearing so little even if the camera angles seem to be discrete.

I have tried to look up if there is a rule about the cut and if they wanted could they wear little shorts but I can't find anything. I did read if they remove a wedgie they get marked down?!

AIBU to think that in this day and age it seems a bit odd that these elite athletes need to be so scantily clad and that they probably have more to worry about than waxing, ingrowing hairs and itchiness in the run up to the games?

clicknclack if you think attitudes to male and female bodies in our culture are the same then you are not really qualified to participate in this discussion...

To add to BR's post at 23:01, this is not calling athletes sheep or whatever.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with a woman seeking to avoid international ridicule in the media.

And yes, the moral responsibility for being an arse about a woman's pubic hair does lie with the person being an arse. But as it is, women take choices to manage the existence of metaphorical arses, either in their grooming or in their clothing.

There is nothing wrong with a woman deciding that she'd rather have the freedom of movement she has with a high-cut leotard, and put up with the increased grooming routine, and there never will be.

But the corollary is that there is also nothing wrong with a woman deciding that she would prefer a less intensive grooming routine and that she is comfortable with any pain that is caused by increased fabric in sportsgear. Same as it is absolutely, 100% any cyclist's decision to decide she's comfortable with saddle-sores and depilate anyway.*

*If saddle sores ever continue to be an issue for an athlete after she's tilted the saddle, and she finds the grooming of her nethers to be the key change. I suspect this example to be entirely hypothetical.

Merchant, I don't really care if you think I'm qualified. But I didn't say what you say I'm saying so it doesn't really matter.

What I did say was that in most cultures males and females are expected to keep their pubic hair hidden. I said nothing about attitudes to males and female bodies in general.

No. They aren't. What some people are struggling with is that it is not a free choice to say ton young woman "Here is your competition leotard. It is cut high at the legs, but it is entirely up to you if you want to wax your pubic hair or not. The sport does not rule on pubic hair" Because given the "choice" between waxing and having a close up of your pubic hair on Twitter the next day, I know what absolutely every woman I know would "choose"

Ah Bert! Come on. You know this has been discussed over and over already, you've been provided with lots of facts. How the gymnast will have been wearing less in training, and since early childhood and be used to it, why the cut of the leotard, and why a leotard itself, is favoured etc etc How this is linked to required elements and so on
Anyway. Nationals this wouldn't be quite the same and I'm going to refer you back to my comment about immense media pressure as far as Olympics are concerned

you get an angry mob shouting 'No, it's all FINE. Stop your offensive concern for young impressionable girls! Grrrr.'

Nobody actually said that of course...

"What I did say was that in most cultures males and females are expected to keep their pubic hair hidden"
Agreed. Next?

The other thing that I've seen in several Olympic sports (I trained as an official in two of them so I know their international rules and the national organizations behind them in my country of residence) is that many of the teams don't just want really good athletes, they want people (men and women) who will represent them well and are "trainable" and will conform (in many more ways than just dress). I've seen promising athletes who are very able in their sport but their governing body isn't willing to name them to a team because they are a loose cannon and do not reflect well on the team or country abroad. It may seem sexist in this case to say "this is your uniform, you need to wear it" but if they are looking for a cohesive team who can work together and can follow the rules then that is part of it, wearing the same clothes can help reinforce the team bonds and help them work better together.

What I did say was that in most cultures males and females are expected to keep their pubic hair hidden
Agreed. Next?

So there are several ways to keep it hidden if you have it, cover it with clothing (e.g. skin tone tights) or remove it. It appears that elite women gymnasts can do either.

" they want people (men and women) who will represent them well and are "trainable" and will conform (in many more ways than just dress)"

Yes, I can believe this, which I think makes it less likely that a young woman on the team would choose the tights if her colleagues didn't, ie making the choice less free.

"What I did say was that in most cultures males and females are expected to keep their pubic hair hidden"

That's the point; the costumes in some instances do not hide pubic hair. The athletes (including male divers) are "pretending" they do by removing hair.

Tom Daley said on The Graham Norton show that the reason the diving speedos are so small is because it holds everything in place better so nothing is flapping around.

In water polo they wear them as skimpy as possible because there is less to grab and rip and hold them under with. The women wear suits with inside out zips that fasten from the bottom not the neck, they are made out of material that doesn't stretch well to make it harder for someone to get a hand inside their suit. They don't wear them to flash their bods off. My son's water polo coach once told me that the more serious they got about the game the tighter they wore their speedos and by the end of high school they were going to be tiny.

This thread has been so frustrating because of the lack of ability of people to follow basic logic!

It seems as though the guidance allows tights, which is great. But if you don't want to wear sweaty rights and have publc hair then effectively the choice has been taken away - I certainly would not be brave enough to show my pubes to the entire world.

Oh, and I did see a male diver's pubes above the trunks.

And putting the blame on the athletes is victim blaming I think

Literally no one has put the blame on the athletes. If they are happy to, then obviously wax away. But why do you call it 'victim blaming' when you say that there's nothing wrong? So why are they victims to be blamed?

Binky, the same could be same of people arguing the opposite side so let's not act as if our sparring partners are stupid.

The argument you give (what if you don't want to wear tights) and so you don't have a choice could be the same argument if shorty shorts were available as a choice "what if you wanted pubic hair and didn't want to wear shorty shorts because they don't show my leg extension as well/are uncomfortable and bunch up/don't suit me/are warmer (or whatever reason)" you would be back to the choice of leo and waxing or potentially showing your bush.

Totally agree Binky.

It's also frustrating that so many women are so desperate to believe that sexist attitudes to appearances isn't a real thing.

Or they admit that it's a thing, but somehow it isnt a thing when we enter high-level sports and bodies are under close public scrutiny... Weird.

Reasonable choice of clothing is vital if we are to encourage as many girls as possible to do sports. That's pretty simple. In some sports, this is not yet the case.

It's absurd that we've got certain posters complaining that we are attempting to limit women's choice to wear the existing outfits. That's just failure to read the thread.

Ok so we are illogical, can't read and are desperate simply because we disagree? That's respectful.

It's also frustrating that so many women are so desperate to believe that sexist attitudes to appearances isn't a real thing.

It's also very frustrating that so many women are desperate to appear as victim in a sexist and overpowering male world, and see oppression in anything and everything. It's not helping anyone.

Try not to take it all so personally.

But it is frustrating when people seemingly refuse to follow a straightforward argument.

All this ludicrous 'what if' that bears no relation to anything pertinent. What if a competitor wanted to wearable special magical pair of shorts and dye their pubes blue, or wear a luminous teletubbie outfit? It's not relevant.

It's as if, for some posters, this discussion is taking place in a cultural vacuum instead of in a culture which already has some fucked up ideas about certain aspects of women's bodies. Like pubic hair.

And, for the record, nobody would really raise an eyebrow at a bit of male pubic hair on the beach. I've seen numerous male snail trails. No one cares.

I'd say that being aware of, and taking steps to avoid, sexism is the opposite of embracing the role of victim, currently.

Do you believe in sexism?

"Ok so we are illogical, can't read and are desperate simply because we disagree? That's respectful."

Two questions.1) Do you think it would be easy for an elite woman gymnast to go against the flow and insist on either a lower cut leotard or on leggings (thus making her stand out from her team mates)?

2. Do you think it's a good idea that women who are role models for thousands of little girls worldwide to be expected to model a particular type of hairless, made up femininity? To promote the message that strength, skill, confidence and training are all fine - so long as you continue to look a particular way?

...and it absolutely is a thing in elite sports. But it isn't necessarily ::always:: true when it comes down to uniforms. Yes women are judged horribly on how they look and how they act, there are crass remarks about them being emotional when they win or lose --as if that is a bad thing. They are told to twirl or smile and their choice of colours is debated. Their coaches and husbands are talked about more than the medals they won or the kick ass race they just did.

In two of the sports I am most familiar with if you aren't prepared to wear the gear as is you won't win and you may not take part at all even at a complete beginner level. Both of them have regulations to do with the athlete's clothing/gear that is for safety so you can't play that way. You might want to wear a baggy t-shirt to do beam in but it really isn't safe if it is flapping around and can catch on something. In water polo if you have loose suits and lower cut legs people will break fingers at an increased rate when they get caught in them. The reason no-one wears goggles is that you have to have special permission to do so for a medical condition because it really isn't safe. You also will be tackled harder if you wear a loose suit, the chance of it being ripped off you in the pool is higher.

If you notice during the individual events that the gymnasts often wore unique and different leos from their team mates unlike the team event. Yet so many of them wore long sleeved leos. When you see videos of those same girls/women training they are not usually wearing long sleeved leos. Is it because they feel pressure to do so in front of the cameras so they don't feel pressure to shave their armpits or do they want to win more than they want to wear sleeveless leos and they know that the longer sleeves will show their lines better?

Sorry- question I should have included "do you think it would be easy for an elite woman gymnast todecide not to remove her pubic hair and wear the high cut leotard anyway?

(I'm off to bed, it is midnight here... have fun!)

Ok, click - so there are various factors at work.

I never said sexism was the only factor.

But so many posters seem adamant that sexism is nowhere in the mix. Which is clearly bullshit.

I came back to rejoinder, I've been busy.

All I can say is, this "conversation" has descended in to chaos and insults, of which there was no need.

I can see me continuing to debate this as its become pointless when those not in the know of top level sports try and rare it apart. I think I'll just leave to the frothing and thank my lucky stars all the athletes and parent I work with are wonderful and understand compromise, regulation choices and have a deep understanding of their sport. I think if I ever ran in to some of you as parents of athletes I'd ban you from the training facility for peace and quiet, and if your child showed hard work and talent then it would be easier to coach them without a barrage of abuse.

I'm out, have fun frothing

Nothing to add, then jiggly?

Can you at least give us an answer as to whether you think there is any sexism in sports kits before you retreat?

But it is refreshing to hear someone 'from the inside' be so honest about how non-compliance is treated - she'd ban anyone who didn't toe the party line. Question the wisdom of the rules? You're out!