To think this person should be in jail?

[FerdinandsMassiveBollocks]

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/female-transsexual-walks-free-court-8546941

Anyone else not comfortable with this being counted as a crime committed by a woman? And really not comfortable with this person not going to jail? I don't care if there are no female specific classes, (there is a reason for that btw, because women don't do this shit) this person was male enough to commit the crime they are male enough to go to men's prison.

Various definitions of vaginas up thread need work.

So they need to be self lubricating? Tell that to the lube industry or any post menopausal woman.

So they need to be attached to a cervix and uterus? Tell that to any woman who has had a hysterectomy

So they need to be muscular and contract? Tell that to any woman whose pelvic floor is lax

So they need to allow the passage of menstrual blood? Tell that to any woman who does not have periods be that due to pcos, mirena, ablation, imperforate hymen or hysterectomy.

So you must be xx to be female? What about those xy women with androgen insensitivity? The women that cannot respond to testosterone. The women who are more womanly in appearance than your average woman but still xy by genetics

I might wish for a time where the opportunities for men and women to act in any (legal) way they see fit to arrive. Where women can be as masculine as they like without masculine being male. And men can be as feminine as they like without needing to become female. That the ridiculous gendered world is put behind us.

But we don't live in that world. And until we do, forcing people who are dysphoric with their bodies not matching their internal gender, to continue to be dysphoria just because the world isn't good enough yet is horrible. It does not hurt me if any person wants to chop their penis off or boobs off. If I were to gave a mastectomy tomorrow and had treatment that caused my vaginally to close over I would still be a woman. Who am I to deny the truth of their life if some other woman needs help matching their body to their mental state.

Now with regards to this case I do not understand the argument that she was a different person then. She was not. She was the same person in a differently appearing body and should be punished more than is being reported

There was evidence given to the parliamentary committee about the prevalence of sex offenders wanting to transition. So much so that they have to provide special shops.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/transgender-prisoners-pop-up-shop-8337315

Brilliant post Annie

Nanunanu;
the definition of a vagina could be best summed up as 'typical phenotypic expression of the XX genotype' eg embryological development of the Mullarian ducts, resulting in external (usually signalling associated internal) genital development recognised as of the female, ova producing sex.

now theres a wide variation in possible developmental issues, as with any other organs eg agenesis, dysgenesis, partial development, exaggerated development, virilisation; membranous issues such as haematocolpus may occur, while certain specific genetic conditions eg XY with androgen insensitivity may lead to phenotypic expression of the genome resulting in the embryological development of a 'default' mullarian system instead of Wollfian eg an intersex condition: As with any biological system there is a wide variation in physical development and phenotype, but none of these conditions existence invalidates the fact that there is a set of organs encoded by the X chromosome who's expression is used to recognise the indivdual at birth as ' looks female' eg potentially of the ova producing, childbearing class of our sexually dimorphic species' and assign them to this category no matter what physical or hormonal issues may go unrecognised until later in their life.

In any state of surgical alteration, with any changes to hormonal milieu, lubrication or muscle tone the internal genitalia of an individual who has a developed mullarian system are still distinct from a surgically constructed neovagina.

Whatever technique used to create a neovagina, (and its a fascinating subject to read round) whether it is part of a gender reassignment, or as a construction for an XX individual with agenesis or intersex genitalia; a neovagina is distinct from a 'native' vagina (for want of a better word)
A wide variety of approaches have been used eg penile inversion technique, a skin or omental graft, intestinal flap, or musculocutaneous flap or pedicle graft technique; but whatever method used to create a neovagina the idea is to create a pouch that may be used for intercourse (eg fulfils one potential function of a vagina)
but the tissues of a neovagina and their relationship to other organs/blood supply/sensation/hormone release/microflora etc will be distinct from that of an embryologically developed 'native' organ
and I can see why many people in possession of a vagina are a bit at having the complexity of their body and physiology being directly equated with a 'pouch' or hole to allow intercourse

Its a bit disingenuous to equate surgical changes, hormonal changes and muscle tone changes is somehow directly equivalent to a surgically approximate construction of the female external genitalia

It will be different. But so will a whole host of native vaginas (to use your term) from each other.

They won't all have the same microbes the same blood supply or hormone response. Yes they might all start the same but so do penises. They just respond to a surge of testosterone at around (goodness my embryology is rusty 8 or 9 weeks) and veer off down another route

Within 1 lifetime a single vagina will change on these complexity markers. My vaginally now is not the same as it was as a child and not the same as it will be aged 70.

And I am more than a vagina. Reducing my womanhood down to the possession of some mullerian duct derived structure and its relative testosterone responsiveness denies all else about me that is female. If I did not have it I would still be a woman. If it is never used for procreation or intercourse it remains a vagina.

The results of modern surgical techniques to build a vaginas are quite extraordinary. I'd be hard pushed to distinguish a neo vaginas from a native one.

I can understand why some women feel threatened by what they perceive to be men entering our spaces and bringing all the privilege they garnered when they lived as men with them to their lives now as women. All the different socialisation etc. But the spectrum of female childhood is now so diverse that cis women have massive varying degrees of privilege anyway.

I have no cinnamon swirl in this bun fight other than being female. And xx. Native vagina possessing boobs and female socialisation and everything.

But the actions of other women have hurt me far more than the actions of any trans person. And the shutting out of trans people only diminishes our lives as we miss out on their stories and life experiences.

All of this is separate to the apparent miscarriage of justice when this vile person took out their own psychological distress on innocent children and abused them. And then the judge gave the bizarre reasons for lenient sentencing. But it has only been reported through newspapers and that makes me very wary

Creating a vagina From a penis isclike wearing a prosthesis if you have lost a limb. Yes it's close enough but not the real thing. I don't think anyone can even disagree with that. Unless of course you are happy to say to an amputee that the prosthesis leg he/she has is just the same than the leg they had before...

I'm also always at all the comments about these 'special' women who don't have the XX chromosomes etc etc due to anomalies. Yes I'm sure they pass as women but the major difference is that they have been socialised as women, not men. And they don't have a working penis, if they have a penis at all. So not all comparable to a trans women.

Unlike some posters on this thread, I would have no issue with a trans woman who either has had surgery and no penis or has a non working penis to be in the women changing room. Because yes they are much closer to these people with chromosomes abnormality etc...
I do have a major issue with trans women who still have a working penis to be in the women's.
The issue is only a very small % of trans do get the surgery so I'm wondering how many trans woukd actually be 'allowed' in in that case.
I'm also wondering what you are supposed to do with a trans man with a beard that wants to use the women changing room/loos. If trans women go to the men because they are men then surely trans men should use the women's loos. And then again, how will you separate trans men that are 'women' and men that have a 'feminine' look to them?
Whatever the situation, women spaces are taken for granted and open to abuse.

Nanu do the reconstituted vagina have any feelings at all? Do they have a clit?
Seriously, fur a vaguba and clitorus are the source of pleasure when having sex. If a man is loosing their penis and has a brand new vagina, does it come with sensations a D feelings too? I somehow doubt it seeing how hard it is to connect nerves etc but I'm happy to be proven wrong.

I'm that you think that the way you are brought up doesn't make any difference at all because we have such a wide range of experiences. Do you mean that feminists have won and there is full and total equality with men now???
My experience with my own dcs tells me a different story and that girjs/women are still conditioned in a very way than boys/men. So saying that these differences don't matter is leaving me open mouthed tbh.

Finally, where do you expect a news like that one to be reported if not in the newspaper?

It might be more complicated on who's allowed where with changing rooms and ftt with beards. That's irrelevant to prisons though, I imagine the officials involved are aware of what's hiding in the persons knickers.

So how is there any question of where someone like Tara Hudson should be housed?

I just had a thought - surely female prison officers who have to conduct intimate searches have a right not to be suddenly confronted by a penis?

Well that one is non negociating IMO. Someone who is sent to prison because they have used their or is in an unlawful way stays with people who have working penises.

The issue though is that I think women are doing themselves a disservice when they are rejected completely any trans woman from changing room. Some trans women don't just pass as women. They are women just as much as my friend who had a chromosome anomaly and was living as a woman even though she was born with a penis (said penis was removed when she was around 5yo as it wasn't developing).
The issue is with other type of trans who not only don't pass but also don't actually 'behave' like women, aka they still use their penis and therefore be a risk to women around them.
I also have a major issue with the retrorockets of trans but that's another issue altogether.

TBF I don't think MtoT should be housed in standard male prisons, they would be very vulnerable. But neither should they be housed in female prisons (and the converse is true for FtoT)

I think they need to be housed in a trans or vulnerable wing of the prison that correlates to their biological sex. Sex based medical issues etc don't change in transition and it would be more appropriate to be in a facility that has expertise in working with the prisoners sex so that issues can be dealt with more readily.

Same as a MtoT would not be best served by seeing a gynaecologist .

YY.
In effect we are in the middle of something that requires some changes and we haven't done them yet.
Having said that you can also say that gay men will be more vulnerable in a men prison but they dont get special treatment either....

surely female prison officers who have to conduct intimate searches have a right not to be suddenly confronted by a penis?

Recently there was a poor me story in buzzfeed about a trans woman who had booked a Brazilian wax but failed to tell them they still had a penis. The trans woman and the article was bemoaning how mean they were by refusing to wax the scrotum and penis without once considering that actually, exposing your penis without consent is a crime. The waxer was expecting a neo vagina, and was presented with a penis. She didn't consent to seeing a penis.

For once i'm pleased with mnhq.
I usually disagree with the majority of things pearlman posts, but completey agree with them on this.
I'm glad mn have deleted a lot of posts on here, they were vile.
Though i'll probably be accused of hating woman and bowing down to men simply for not liking the comments directed towards trans people.
I thought times had moved on.

No opinion on what the thread is actually about then, Kali?

I'm offering support to Pearlman as well - patience beyond provocation imho.

As for the offender, I am disappointed by the leniancy of the sentence and believe they should be imprisoned. Oh, just the same as Pearlman, who has never said otherwise.

" the shutting out of trans people only diminishes our lives as we miss out on their stories and life experiences."

I'm sure I'll cope.

No. You will see in my post that I conceed there is difference in socialisation. But within cis women there are differences in socialisation. My socialisation will have been closer to some men than some women. And very very different to a lot of men. But, perhaps as women, we could learn something from these women who were initially socialised as men. Not because men are better but because we can learn from all life experiences. Perhaps the day I hope for, when we can all be as masculine as we want without feeling we have to become male or as feminine as we want without having to become female may come. But we get hung up on the specialness of genital structures on the chromosomes and lose track of the person inside the body. Chop off my hair boobs or fanny and I would need a period of readjustment as I adjust to being a woman without hair boobs or genitalia. But I would always remain a woman. I would not suddenly become anything else. Graft a penis to me and I would be a woman with a penis. And I can't explain what defines my womanhood other than I know it to be so. So how can I deny that truth to another human being?

beyond the thread has moved on from what the orginal post was actually on, but I think the sentence was very lenient. It should have harder.
I'm also shocked that there are no courses geared towards helping woman who have offended, not reoffend when they are released.

mrs how nice.

The obvious solution would to rename the course as one for people who possess or have once possessed a penis.

There are 2 issues with the fact that this
Person wasn't put on a perpetrators course
1- it's for a group of men, the entire dynamic would be altered by putting a tw in, not just for the tw but for the other men. Solution - do the perpetrators work one to one with the tw. Perfectly possible.
2- the research and evidence is all related to men. If you accept that this person has never been a man then you can't put them on the course. However logic and sense says that they were a man for 58 years and a man when they committed the crime so evidence based treatment for men will be appropriate. The problem is that logic and sense go out of the window when it comes to trans ideology and material reality (this person was a man until extremely recently) gets erased in favour of magical thinking (this person was psychologically a women even when they were sexually abusing children with their penis)

Perpetrators programmes for women wouldn't be appropriate for this person. The motives and triggers for sexually abusing in women tend to be different to men and the courses are set up to meet the requirements of women, who were socialised as women

Nanu, some differences in socialisation don't negate the fact that women are primarily oppressed on the basis of their biology. Even when they do not have the same biology i.e. they can't have children, don't have periods etc. Men are not the oppressed class and are not socialised the same way.

Gender is irrelevant here.

A child has been abused.

Whatever your views on gender and trans issues surely all of us can agree that child abuse should not be something anyone should get away with?!

I just don't get what the judge ruled. I cannot understand at all. If there are male only courses then make a new course? Start a different class? How can this person get off with no prison sentence?

A child has been abused. People are losing sight of that on here.

Yy vixy. Regardless of the course anyway, it is unbelievable that this person has got away with no custodial sentence at all for abusing a child.