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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To think this person should be in jail?

408 replies

FerdinandsMassiveBollocks · 03/08/2016 06:25

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/female-transsexual-walks-free-court-8546941

Anyone else not comfortable with this being counted as a crime committed by a woman? And really not comfortable with this person not going to jail? I don't care if there are no female specific classes, (there is a reason for that btw, because women don't do this shit) this person was male enough to commit the crime they are male enough to go to men's prison.

OP posts:
WilLiAmHerschel · 03/08/2016 15:23

And actually I find a male born person who claims to be female because of an unspecified feeling, is harmful to me, as a woman and to all other women and girls. Being female is an objective reality.

FerdinandsMassiveBollocks · 03/08/2016 15:35

The status of being a woman, said no woman ever.

OP posts:
UnexpectedBaggage · 03/08/2016 16:05

Why are the misogynist comments left to stand?

Double standards, MNHQ. I'm ashamed of you.

PovertyPain · 03/08/2016 16:13

Why are the misogynist comments left to stand?

Because we must be sure to give men that want to become women a voice. It's not as if women have ever had to fight to have their opinions heard. It's not as if women are having their rights taken away from them. Oh....that's right....Hmm

WeMustSurelyBeLearning · 03/08/2016 16:47

The vagina after a sex change operation is NOT just a hole. It is far more complex than that. However, I think your position is now clear. Someone who is born as a man is always a man regardless of chromosomes, surgery, etc. That is not a position I can agree with, nor is it the position in law.

You do know that chromosomes can't change don't you? Someone born a male is always a male as male refers to SEX which is unchangeable. That's not transphobic, it's a biological fact. If they want to 'live as woman', whatever that means, then fair enough they can do what they want but why do we have to pretend they have the same experiences as born females when clearly they don't?

FerdinandsMassiveBollocks · 03/08/2016 16:59

Yes, how did I miss that bit about chromosomes!? This is the madness we are dealing with!

OP posts:
pleasemothermay1 · 03/08/2016 17:09

There is a reason why they need to take hormones because they don't have the female ones

I don't want to share toilets , showers or any other space that's intermet with Somone with a frigging penis

BeJayKayven · 03/08/2016 17:18

Yadnbu.

WellErrr · 03/08/2016 17:42

Why are the misogynist comments left to stand?

It's been said here before; Hurrah for women's rights! Unless it pisses a man off, in which case Down With That Sort Of Thing.

WaitrosePigeon · 03/08/2016 17:59

What a fucking mess.

ArcheryAnnie · 03/08/2016 18:10

Do you people spend a tenth of the time u spend howling about this stuff campaigning for actual constructive causes? Like improving conditions in women's prisons, or getting them work when they get out, or better support for their families while they are incarcerated? Or do you only care about women prisoners when it gives you a chance to shriek about the horrors of a penis (or former penis) hidden behind a skirt?

Tabsicle yes, I do, and I have for a very long time.

Which is how I know how vulnerable the vast majority of women prisoners are. How more than 80% of them are in there for nonviolent crimes. How more than half are victims of childhood emotional, physical or sexual abuse. How a third of them spent time in care as a child. How many are victims of domestic violence - one stat says 46%, another 80%.

Women prisoners account for 28% of the prisoners who self-harm - wildly disproportionate when you consider they make up only 5% of the total prison population. Nearly half the women in prison have attempted suicide.

Now, let's have a look at all the transwomen in prison who have come to public attention now.

Paris Green - kicked a man to death over a bag of chips. Begun transition after arrest. Was put into a women's prison, but had to be moved because was having sex with the women prisoners there. (Was moved to another women's prison - wtf?) Since women's prisons are full of women who have spent their whole lives learning how to appease the violent males in their lives in order to survive, we will never know if this sex was consensual.
Vikki Thompson - died by suicide in a men's prison awaiting sentencing for robbery (theft by force or threat of force).
Tara Hudson - attacked a barman, headbutted him, broke his teeth. Claimed to be "living as a woman" despite working as an escort and advertising their "seven inch surprise". Moved to a women's prison after an outcry.
Davina Ayrton - raped a 15 year old. Announced intention to transition after arrest.
Joanna Latham - was serving several life sentences for attempted murder, committed before announcing intent to transition. (Attempting to poison female flatmate, then stabbing fellow inmate.) Died by suicide in custody in a men's prison shortly after changing name and announcing intent to transition. Was so dangerous, could not be left alone with their own lawyer.

Any I have missed?

Yes, women can be and occasionally are violent. Yes, women can commit vile sex crimes, and occasionally do. But shame on those of you here who are trying to make out that the numbers are in any way comparable, or who have derailed this thread with cries of "women can be violent, too!" Overwhelmingly men commit more violent and sexual crimes than women, and transwomen commit crimes at the same rate as men do.

Even the Pink Paper, a publication not known for giving a single shiny shit about women, has published on the need for a third space prison for trans and nonbinary prisoners.

Finally, women (however you define women) in men's prisons are not a new thing, mainly because there are facilities in men's prisons (because of the vast number of men prisoners when compared to women in prison) that just don't exist in women's prisons. "Close supervision centres" (CSCs), for example, I don't think exist in women's prisons, so a prisoner such as Joanne Latham could not have been moved to a women's prison whatever the prison policy on transitioning prisoners. The MEP Martina Anderson, when a Cat A high-profile and high-risk prisoner, was held in Brixton Prison and Durham.

Satisfied, Tabsicle?

PovertyPain · 03/08/2016 18:14

Fucking brilliant, Annie.

BastardDailyMail · 03/08/2016 18:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MorrisZapp · 03/08/2016 18:21

Amazing work Annie. Brilliant, unassailable response.

ArcheryAnnie · 03/08/2016 18:24

BastardDailyMail your post reminds me that the overwhelming life experience of the majority of women who end up in prison is to learn, again and again, that their needs, wants and safety don't matter. Being forced to share intimate quarters (be locked in a tiny room, be forced to share showers, loos, bedrooms) with male-bodied people, with no choice in the matter, when most have suffered violence from male-bodied people all their lives, reinforces this lesson that their needs, wants, and safety are irrelevant.

Harm has already happened. It isn't a theoretical thing.

venusinscorpio · 03/08/2016 18:27

Great posts, ArcheryAnnie. Again so much thought is given to the psychological wellbeing of trans women, while very little to none is given to that of women.

BastardDailyMail · 03/08/2016 18:32

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

APlaceOnTheCouch · 03/08/2016 18:34

Annie thank you for your post and the work you do with women Flowers

FirstShinyRobe · 03/08/2016 18:39

Fabulous posts, ArcheryAnnie, FerdinandsMassiveBollocks et al.

Just a small point on the thread (but larger in the scheme of things), you don't need surgery to get a GRC. So using that as confirmation that the rape counsellor or similar is lacking in the penis department won't work. And having a GRC means that no-one can know the previous legal identity without self-declaration, so unless the transwoman has enough empathy to recuse themselves, women can and will be put in situations that are harmful to them.

VeniVidiVickiQV · 03/08/2016 19:27

Just wanted to add, in response to pearlman's assertions that men who have transitioned to Transwomen them feel better or are fixed somehow (not a direct quote, but similar was said several times): there is no evidence to support this, and studies that have been done indicate that up to 80% of those who have transitioned, do not feel better, or experience long term benefits. Suicide rates post transition are the same as pre transition, many regret transition, and a proportion of those people go on to detransition. Additionally, the doctor who pioneered sex reassignment surgery no longer carries out the procedures because the results did not justify a person undergoing the risks of major surgery, and continuing on lifetime medication to suppress natural hormones etc. GPs like Dr Webberley ate doing a huge disservice to children and their families by pushing for hormone treatments that have had no robust studies on children, coz ethics obviously. We do know long term use in adults does have serious health consequences (see studies for women on HRT for example). We are looking at changing a huge amount of civil liberties for women to accommodate people who at best, are being misadvised on gender and associated treatment, whereby this treatment imposes on rights of females. Honestly cannot see how this benefits women or Transwomen. It's bonkers.

BapsOfSteel · 03/08/2016 19:57

Great post Annie!

You did forget Synthia China Blast though although American so maybe you were counting her. We also have Jenner for people who transitioned after a crime but before sentencing though admittedly not violent, still interesting timing. Even more interesting timing is Chelsea Manning who came out the day after sentencing. Nothing to do with going to a men's prison I am sure.
elegantgatheringofwhitesnows.com/?p=1923

RepentAtLeisure · 03/08/2016 20:47

I hate the fact that transwomen's crimes will skew crime stats to make it look like women are becoming more violent and committing more sex crimes than before. It's funny how these 'female brains' still commit very male crimes.

GinAndSonic · 03/08/2016 20:55

Yes Repent these "female brains" committing crimes often with their "female penis" Hmm Its utter madness that we are supposed to go "oh yeah, it's ok to share a prison cell coz she has a FEMALE dick"

BeyondBeyondBeyondBeyondBeyond · 03/08/2016 21:57

Criminal Mtt want to be housed on the female estate? Well, what better way for them to be treated just like natal women than for no one to give a flying fuck what their opinion on the matter is? :)

venusinscorpio · 03/08/2016 23:16

Well quite, Beyond!

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