To think this is not such a good idea to blame me for DH's decision with PIL?

[logosthecat]

Ok some background.

PIL are difficult - DH and I both agree wholeheartedly on this, there is no argument (fwiw, BIL and his partner also agree!). However, DH loves his folks and does want to maintain some kind of relationship. Long history of domineering/bullying behaviour, DH has had counselling to deal with it. They live at the opposite end of the country.

They have been retired since their 40s (inheritance), and they don't really remember what it's like to deal with the stresses of the working week. I think they don't really understand the difference between 'rest' and 'relaxation' - that, if you're absolutely exhausted by work, the things that you might normally find relaxing, like going to nice places, can become a chore.

DH has a VERY demanding job. Long hours, lots of responsibility, lots of aggro. And it's just got worse as he's been promoted. We tend to use the weekends for rest and recuperation. However, when we visit them, it is a cacophony of noise and activity for day after day - we are literally marched around visiting places from first thing thing in the morning to last thing at night. DH is harassed and stressed and upset by this (they are also terribly insensitive, which doesn't help). He frequently becomes ill during or after the visit, and we then hobble through the following week with him going to work and returning to collapse with exhaustion in the evenings, because he hasn't had the downtime he needs. It really bites into our quality of life.

For this reason, we are trying to have shorter visits with PIL. We used to do 4-5 days 4 times a year. We are trying to see them for 1-1.5 days more frequently, every couple of months.

So here's the issue.

We are due to visit their home in August, and DH outlined to them that we'd only be spending one night (2 days). (This has been clear from the start, but they have been conveniently ignoring it to now). All hell broke loose. FIL went into full emotional blackmail mode: 'This is TERRIBLE, your mother will be terribly disappointed, she's been so excited with all the days she's got planned, we're not getting any younger' etc etc etc. We hosted them for a long weekend last month, and we also saw them at a beer festival the month before!!

DH kept his cool but framed the decision that it was pressure from me. 'I need to spend some time with my wife, I've only been staring at screens the last few weekends, and she says she wants some time for just the two of us'. This is not actually true. We agreed together that we didn't want to do the long visits, and I have not, in fact, asked for more of his time! The issue is simply with the way that they are stressful to deal with and both of us reach our limit of tolerance (beyond which we are simply gritting our teeth) at about 24 hours in their company.

AIBU to think that this is likely to lead them to dislike and blame me for the changes? And that there might be better ways of handling it, like being more honest about the actual state of affairs? (I don't mind being told I AM being unreasonable if it is a good plan, I am just not sure we are handling this as well as we could).

You can't expect toxic,"stately homes" type parents to behave reasonably.

I also don't think DH's boundaries with his parents are anywhere near right yet, eg such frequent visits to the other end of the country, complying with their wishes to go out when he wishes to stay in etc.

Hahaha, yes sorry about the updates. I have a day off today, and I think it's all flooding out. Thanks for bearing with me.

I did have stern words with them once.

To understand this story, you have to get that they talk continually. If there is no topic of conversation, they will read out the ingredients on the back of a packet, roadsigns, basically anything that is in the environment around them.

So I was the designated driver taking them to a restaurant on day 3 of the visit, and conditions were terrible. it's a winter of torrential rain, and we're in the middle of a storm that is barely cleared by the wipers. DH and I aren't sure of the way, so he's navigating and I'm trying to listen - he's in the passenger seat. MIL, who can't bear anyone having a conversation that does not flow through her, starts repeating my name at an increasingly volume and then making stupid jokes. It's clear that she's got nothing to say, she just can't deal with someone having a conversation that doesn't include her, even if it's about the directions. This constant pull on my attention for no reason is already making life more difficult even than the conditions.

Then, all of a sudden, FIL in the backseat suddenly leans forward and screams 'WATCH OUT!'. He thought a lorry had stopped in the road. It was actually parked in a layby and I was nowhere near it - he'd just made a miscalculation, a result of that weird perspective you get in the back of a car. But I nearly had a heart attack and the panic made me say 'For Chrissakes, will you BOTH just SHUT UP!'

I got a LOT of passive-aggressive huffing, emotional blackmail about 'only trying to help', and a definite criticism that I had been 'rude'!

Basically, if they force you into a position where you lose it, they make you feel like the bad one! And yet there is hardly any way to stop them without going to that point.

I'm going to have to learn to weather the passive-aggressive storm, aren't I?

Pull the car over and turn the engine off. When they start asking why, say that the weather is too bad to drive while theyre talking, so youve pulled over so they can tell you whatever it was that was so important.

When youre the driver, YOU get to be in charge.

You need a work crisis that forces you to return early home. In a flurry. So sorry. And if they try and get you up early, perhaps start interesting activities with your DH. If they start watching, act. Fifty shades of grey for inspiration!

Nope you need to be firm back. Channel the inner MN 'No is a complete sentence' and extrapolate it out to other similar curt responses, let them talk themselves around a corner all they want but just don't engage seriously what can they do other than luck you out early for being rude........do you see where I am going with this win-win

Luck=chuck grr

They do not have to like you booking into the hotel. They never will like it, but as you are unhappy now and they don't care, why bother about what they want, given how unreasonable it is.

"We are staying at a nearby hotel and will meet you at X castle at 1030. We'll both take our own cars as we will nip back to the hotel in the afternoon to change then meet you for dinner at 1900 in madeuptown. Let's do a pub lunch on Sunday near you so you can stay on for a drink if you want, we'll need to head off at 1500 of course, no drinking as we are driving.

I'm sorry that's not what you want. Would you prefer us not to come at all?

I am also wondering why you don't book a hotel. I see your point about the tears, emotional blackmail, etc but I do think (for your own sanity) that you are going to have to lay down the law a bit. I suspect that booking somewhere else is going to be more effective than talking to them as they don't want to listen and it gives you a physical escape from the constant talking! I'd say that Jacquetta above has a good schedule.

I have a relative who - with the best will in the world - will try and plan an itinerary if you are going near them. It has had to be pointed out to them that we don't all run to a plan, but the route march itinerary is only because they think it is a genuinely enjoyable proposition. I'm not sure this is true of your in-laws, I suspect that they want to be able to say that you all did a lot, had fun, blah, blah. The other plausible explanation is that one (or both) of them suffer a bit with anxiety as sufferers often feel better with a detailed plan and struggle with taking a more relaxed approach to visits!

Boundaries, woman (and even more so your DH), boundaries!

The other way round it is to get really active. How about hill walking, cycling and visiting a ski dome one weekend. Take them in shifts. They will sleep for a week. No tootling round nt houses!

I think it was unfair of DH to put the blame at your door

I'm a little surprised that someone in such a senior position can't cope with a relatively short family visit without being taken unwell as a result

I think that polite firm consistent answers are the way to go, for example -

We've decided to stay in a hotel this time
Oh but you'd be so much more comfortable with us
No thanks, we've decided to stay in a hotel
But why? it would be easier all round if you stayed with us
No thanks, we've decided to stay in a hotel
I don't understand it, what's going on?
We've decided to stay in a hotel
Is it because the house isn't big enough
No, but we've decided to stay in a hotel
But it makes no sense
That's what we've decided we'd like to do

ie don't give any answers that they can latch on to

In all honesty, I think you will have to accept that if anything is to change, you will have to become more assertive about how you deal with them and that this will create them reacting badly for a time.

I would suggest that you work all together on this with BIL as then when one of you is worn down the other can be the moral support.

I would also be thinking about what to do if they do react really badly (e.g. the equivalent of nuclear Armageddon). Will you simply pack up and go, have a massive confrontation, or what? How far do they have to push it before you or DH have had enough?

Plan for all eventualities, phrases to use, agree these and help each other stick to them. Be as obstinate as they are!

I think if you don't do this, you will have to accept this is the way it is until they get yo an age that they cannot manage the pace anymore themselves.

I cannot think there is a magic bullet that will sort this out without any upset or conflict along the way, sorry.

They sound a total nightmare. However, I can't understand why you don't just have the stand up row and deal with the fall-out because it's never going to get any better until you do. What is it that you're both afraid of? Surely, if the worst came to the worst, and they fell out with you then a rift would be a blessed relief!

You sounds like really nice people but I suspect that there is a large inheritance involved in this situation and you're worried about upsetting them too much in case they leave it to the cats' home. The truth is that it's never worth not being free for the sake of money and if they're the type of peope I suspect them to be then they could easily will the money elsewhere for some spurious reason even if you do everything 'right' and endure endless miserable weekends in National Trust houses.

My apologies if I've guessed wrong but there seems no other understandable reason why you would put up with this behaviour.

Oh fuck why don't we have an rich relatives who would pop off and let us retire with a huge inheritance

Op they found like party animals and appallingly self centred.

You and your dh need to put yourselves first here and just say no and it wouldn't bother he in the slightest if I was used as the fall guy. They probably dislike you anyway by the sounds of it and will be nasty whatever your dh says.

Families aye.

It is a bit of an offensive leap to assume the OP is only in it for the money

Some people recognise family ties, even if they are stressful and misery making!

It's probably OK to blame you this once, but it doesn't tackle the problem of your husband not being able to say no.

When FIL started with the emotional blackmail, that was the time to say that if what you wanted to do wasn't OK, then you would not visit as planned.

If you go & they try to make you go somewhere/do something/stay longer, just leave!

They sound awful. I sympathise. As much as this is a chance for you to vent, you do realize this is an on-line "why-don't-you-yes-but"? Every single suggestion is unsatisfactory, to be fair you haven't really asked for a solution, just the AIBU?

if you keep on doing what you've all done, you'll keep on getting what you've always got. Or more simply, if nothing changes, nothing changes.

So it's either put up with things as they are or risk pissing them off in the hope of establishing some boundaries. I second the suggestion that you will be staying in a hotel, meeting them somewhere at 10.30 etc and if they can't accept that then let's give it a miss. Not saying it's easy. Don't envy you.

UptownFlunk I asked the same question earlier but OP did not respond (as is her right of course) I haven't responded to her original AIBU, so horses for courses.

Have you ever heard of transactional analysis? Your iLs are using the 'parent' mode of dealing with you and DH. And it's working, isn't it? Because the two of you are responding in the 'child' mode. You and DH need to respond as 'adults', stating plainly what you are and are not willing to do.

I think, unfortunately, that this is going to have to come down to an ultimatum on your parts. If they aren't going to listen and adjust plans based on requests, you're going to have to resort to 'We are going to do XXX or we won't be coming at all'. Trying to 'sidestep them (taking two cars, staying at hotels) are sort of 'stop gap' measures that will only result in them working even harder to find ways/reasons where what you're proposing 'won't do'.

Just saw a few x-posts.

OP, if you and DH are putting up with this for the sake of inheritance, then I'm afraid you're just stuck with it. Listen, I don't have a problem with anyone doing that, honestly I might do it myself if enough money were involved, who knows? But it'd have to be a whole hell of a lot!

But waiting for 'dead man's shoes' is a very, very long and hard wait and still a bit of a gamble. You can do and be all and still get done out of inheritance with care home fees, subsequent spouses with children, bad investments, an imagined slight, or a whole plethora of misfortunes/misunderstandings. My sister and BiL (both very lovely people) were extremely wealthy and their (adult) children and grandchildren were partially subsidized by them (they all worked, but had a lifestyle above their earnings paid for by DS/BiL). And they were pretty much assured of an extremely comfortable inheritance 'in due course'. DS/BiL lost every penny in the crash of '08. Sic transit gloria mundi.

I don't think this is anything to do with early retirement, or them having nothing to do.

I think they have a problem. They are both either narcissistic or they have some other condition.

What you choose to do about that is up to you.

I don't think OP and her DH are motivated by possible inheritances at all! Her DH's parents have been like this for a looooong time, and he has been 'trained' by them (since childhood, I presume) to accept this. It's hard to break that sort of conditioning. Often the child only realises that the relationship is fucked up dysfunctional once they're expsed to a more normal dynamic - sometimes schoolfriends' families, sometimes not until they meet a partner. (Sometimes never, and they impose it on their partner .)

'It is a bit of an offensive leap to assume the OP is only in it for the money'

I did not imply anything as simplistic as that the OP was just 'in it for the money' I asked if it was part of the problem, relationships can be complex with lots of interlinked issues. The OP mentions that her ILs retired early etc. so I am assuming that they are comfortably off. I'm pretty sure most people would be wary of seriously offending someone that they might inherit a life-changing amount from eventually - very few people are saints. Personally, I did walk away from an inheritance because I didn't want to be controlled but it is very hard to do because life is difficult and money can make it a lot easier.

I think the OP and her husband sound like kind people who are doing their best in very difficult circumstances. Part of it will be because they are reasonable people trying to have a 'normal' adult parent/child relationship with people who aren't in any way reasonable. However, what they describe is extreme and I can't imagine why anyone would put up with that long-term purely out of filial duty and respect. What I was trying to say was that if it is in any way linked to inheritance issues it may not be worth it for the stress and ill-health it could cause.

You really do need to get some proper help/counselling inorder to deal with these people.

It is now up to YOU and your DH to stop this happening. You sound so bloody frightened by them but it will all carry on unless you both decide to stop it. It is in your power to do this.

I'd advise sending an email from both of you explaining what's have said here, about why you find your visits so difficult. You then need to put down some rules.....
We Will be staying in a hotel
We will be meeting you at 10am at X place
We will be returning to our hotel at 8pm. Etc etc

When they start with the tears, arguing, and PA stuff, just repeat "we will be sticking to things we set out in the email"

Sorry to be blunt but you both need to put your big girl knickers on and take control of this situation.

Basically, the problem isn't that we can't say no. The problem is that we are constantly saying 'No, NO, NO' and it's exhausting. Have you ever been around people who just don't listen? Who bully 24/7? It is not like there are major events in this where you can take a stand. Nor can you just have it out once and it's over. There is no row that can clear the air and set things on a right footing. However much we try to explain, to get them to listen, they just nod and then continue doing whatever they want to do. The result is that we have to exercise constant vigilance, to be constantly alert to the ways in which they domineer, at a micro-level, literally hundreds of times a day. It is incredibly stressful, and you can't relax for one second.

And no, there is no inheritance issue. I think that might have come up because I said earlier that PIL had been able to retire in their 40s due to an inheritance. They are fairly comfortably off, though not loaded, but we have more than enough money. We love our life just as it is, and we really want for nothing. I suspect that what will happen to any money they do have is that it will be eaten by the health and social care system, because there is no fucking way in ten billion light years I would be able to care for them as they got older - I'm struggling with 4 days in their company, I would honestly be on the verge of institutionalisation at a week, let alone months. Therefore, we really don't expect to receive much after they are gone.

The reason we put up with it is that they are actually very difficult to argue with. I realise that sounds odd, but their MO is entirely passive-aggressive, not aggressive-aggressive. They work by making you feel bad about having any idea that diverges from theirs, but it's done in a really, really odd way that I've never encountered in anyone before, perhaps because we all tend to avoid those who behave in unacceptable ways in friendship groups - but we can't avoid them as easily in families or perhaps at work.

In real life, I'm quite feisty. I can hold my end in an argument, and while I don't enjoy or like conflict in any way, I am not terrified of it. I am prepared to seek it out if a situation can only be solve that way. If it were just a matter of having a row, I could do that and, to be completely honest, I'd probably win because I'm fast on my feet when roused. However, like most PA people, PIL shy away from actual conflict. They work firstly by not listening and bulldozing (first line), which forces you into a position where you have to be firmer than you would like just to be heard - and I am talking verging-on-rude behaviour that is quite stressful to maintain for anyone who was brought up not to behave that way (second line), and then reacting to that firmness with emotional blackmail in a huffy and PA way, that also centres everything on their reactions and emotions, as if no-one else had any feelings (third line). There may also be prolonged sulking at this point, which is also upsetting and difficult. At no point in the cycle does anger ever feel like an appropriate response, because none of this is done aggressively - it's smothering and suffocating, not stabbing. It's all done from a premise of care ("We just want to see you and have a nice time!") yet what is actually happening is bullying ("You will do what we want to do, when we want to do it, and you will like it").

And we have done the explaining. Believe me, we have sat them down and we have talked about being tired, about not wanting to run around. They nod, and then continue exactly as before. This happens because They Will Not Listen To Anything They Don't Want To Hear.

So I will give calculated anger a go as a way of beating down those walls of selective deafness. But I think it's unlikely to have any lasting effect. All we can do, I think, is to limit the visits to a short timeframe, find a compromise with what they want to do so that they at least have some of the time they want to have with their son, and then get the hell out of there before it becomes too much!

(Oh, and for those who are saying they are surprised that a high-functioning individual could be so cowed by parents, I suggest that you show little understanding of the longterm effects of a fairly abusive childhood. )