DD's refusing to wear a bra, her Head of Year is saying she isn't allowed at school.

[EmmelineW]

DD is 14 (Yr 9) she tried a bra at 12, hated it and has refused to wear one since. She did try a sports bra, which she wore a couple of times in the day but now refuses and would only wear for PE. She's very confident and popular, so it hasn't ever caused any teasing (she normally makes a joke and is very vocal about not wearing one, she says that if she wasn't, she would be bullied because of it).

She had PE today, which was the first lesson she refused to wear her sports bra, she was told to not take part by her PE teacher - her PE teacher is very 'down with the kids' and mentioned it to her privately.

I would just like to say, previously to this, I was called in to make sure that she had a female role model to talk to about periods/bras as it had come to their attention, that was all cleared up.

Head of Year sent her home today because of it and said she isn't allowed back until she wears one, as it's put under the same category as having a short skirt. Where do we stand with this? Does it come under uniform issues? I'm not really sure what they're saying she can't come back for rule wise.

Obviously your DD is ermmm "big enough" to notice that she is not wearing a bra?

And?

She has breasts, like most girls of her age. That is obvious whether she wears a bra over them or not. They will just be a slightly different shape, and may move differently. She still has the same breasts.

It is her choice what sort of underwear she has. If she is wearing the correct school uniform, it's none of the teacher's business what she has underneath. I find that sort of interference rather creepy.

So you have to force your child to wear clothes they don't want to, to make you a parent? When they're really uncomfortable in it? Bullshit

a simple sloggi bar will be the opposite of uncomfortable. Some very martyrish views on here (no surprise there!).

why dies everything involving women have to be a feminist issue?

Given the logic by some on here clearly women should go out wearing a burka because anything that could heighten sexual arousal of a male should be covered up!

Here's an alternative thought for you some men and women have heightened arousal from bondage and some practice this during the day by wearing items under their clothes that are tight and restrictive. These include bras, corset, hobble skirts, heels, cock cages and chasity devices. All worn under their clothes or as outer wear. Its not at all obvious unless they tell you. It doesn't impact on their work nor do they have people around them salivating at the thought. So should we ban them based on the fact they might turn someone on?

Honestly get over yourselves.

I don't wear heels because they are uncomfortable and since breaking my foot I cant bend 2 of my toes. I don't wear dresses because of chafe. I don't wear make up because of skin conditions. I don't wear a bra because the bones dig into my larger breasts even with the correct size because of my breast shape and the non wired ones do bugger all but give me a mono boob.

Am I trying to entice men/get off/be provocative? fuck off am I. I want to be comfortable and not have red welts on my body from an item of clothing just because 'society says so' and I am certain a 14 yo child is doing it for the same reasons I am.

As for distracting the boys. The school should be more concerned with teaching boys the correct way to treat women. Telling a woman she is distracting a man because of her clothes choices is wrong. Men should be taught that women can wear what the fuck they like and they have to learn to keep it in their pants/ desires under control and treat women with respect. If we fail to do this now we are just creating another generation of people who think women are asking for it based on their clothing choices :(

Also it strikes me that by talking about breasts being sexual etc people are assuming that the teenage boys are attracted to this girl. What about if she is, on the other hand, just a laughing stock? Not nice, but there is often in a year, "Errrruuuggh, Samantha Smithers! You can see her huge boobs ! Yeeuugh, I don't want to be her partner in PE!"

Of course she can go bra-less. But, ad infinitum, what's wrong with a vest?!

Furthermore, if OP's dd's language is as fruity as her dm's, then no wonder the school is not impressed.

I didn't wear a bra until I was 14. I did wear a vest though and maybe that's the point?

I don't believe that women and girls should have to change what they wear because the poor little men can't help themselves if they see a nipple or a it of cleavage, but schools disagree, hence why they insist on not-short skirts for example. And I suppose they want to protect their male teachers from eg allegations of looking where they shouldn't.

However, I disagree that a school should be imposing rules about underwear except for PE, clearly you need a (sports) bra then if at no other time. I remember having to wear navy knickers at primary school! Why on earth did it matter?

Oh yes those awful massive blue knickers! We had those. I hated them, but actually appreciated them by the end of school, because my parents (like most) only bought me one PE skirt for the whole of secondary (I guess it was seen as an unnecessary expense). The skirt started off by my knees but by the time I finished secondary school barely covered my bum. So I was quite glad of the big pants then...

Personally I think banning a child from the classroom over uniform is wrong, we are continually told children can't be removed for holidays as it will impact their learning.
Whilst I don't agree she should be forced to wear a bra I do believe a level of compromise is needed on both sides to resolve this.
OP - I would tell your daughter to wear a vest/crop top the first week in September allowing you time to resolve this with the school AND keep her in class.
Get an understanding (in writing) from the school as to what the problem is.
Determine if the issue is genuine, ie could your daughter be disruptive in her refusal, are there issues the teachers are having to deal with that are preventing them from teaching. By having your daughter wear a vest (temporarily) you can show you are being reasonable in wanting to understand the issue before getting annoyed/complaining.

If they really cant demonstrate either of the above issues then I would be allowing your daughter to go back to being comfortable, at 14 she is old enough to understand your approach.
Be fully prepared for them to change the uniform to include 'girls in white bras'

Why do people keep prattling on about vests and crop tops? If your breasts are big enough that its obvious you aren;t wearing a bra, a vest or crop top isn't going to do anything for you.

Obviously your DD is ermmm "big enough" to notice that she is not wearing a bra?
It was noticed when she changed for PE

except for PE, clearly you need a (sports) bra then if at no other time
Why? If SHE is comfortable without one, and there is no injury that she could come to not wearing one, why should she have to wear something she finds uncomfortable? I don't wear a bra for exercise.

She's 14 and should be wearing a bra for social dignity, be a fucking parent and make her wear one.
I can't believe I just read that!
Social dignity? She has no flesh on display. Her nipples are not poking through the shirt. The shirt is not see through. You think she should be forced to wear another layer under her shirt in order to disguise the existence of her breasts?

OP does your DD's school have a Sixth Form?

Might that say something about not going bra-less, which can be applied to girls lower down the school?

Vests or crop tops would deal with any transparency issues as lots of school tops are quite see through. They won't lift her breasts or change their shape but she doesn't want them lifted. It will however hide any visible nipple or skin and make the outline of the shape less obvious.

She's 14 and should be wearing a bra for social dignity According to what rules?

be a fucking parent and make her wear one. There is more to being a parent than MAKING your child do something they don't want to, especially when it isn't impacting on her health/education etc in any way!

I have read this whole thread and there are a lot of strong feelings and I can see both sides of the debate. OP you asked for opinions, and you certainly got them in spadefuls!

Of course no-one should be told what underwear they have to wear. On the other hand schools (like many institutions) often have rules that parents and children don't agree with. You have to decide which battles you want to fight. It seems to me you and your DD have two choices:

1. To accept the school has an issue, and that while you may not agree with their rule, its not worth all the aggravation / disruption to your child's education and damage to your relationship with school. Find some sort of compromise that suits everyone (e.g. crop top). At 14 you will be able to explain and talk through the issues with your DD.

2. To decide that actually this is one rule that you are willing to take a stand over. Give your daughter your full support in her decision. Write to the school with your decision, giving clear rational reasons. Put the onus back onto the school to address any bullying issues that may take place, and ask them to outline what education the children receive in sexual discrimination, bullying, accepting of differences etc.

I honestly don't know what I would do in your situation. Whichever you choose I think you will find lots of support on here. Good Luck!

I hope this child's identity never gets out. How humiliating all this bra wars business must be. As you were.

If this issue is with the Head of Year surely the OP's DD is about to get a new one after the summer holidays anyway.

tanfield if this is true then it probably will get out.

If this is the only problem in your life OP then you're laughing

Does arranging my sister's funeral count?

I'm trying to let my daughter be comfortable, she finds the sports bra/non wired ones hot. So it causes her to be sweaty.

I'm trying to let my daughter be comfortable, she finds the sports bra/non wired ones hot. So it causes her to be sweaty. Oh give over.

No, you give over.

They all get sweaty, PE is supposed to make you sweaty. Else why bother. That's why the locker room is full of sprayed deodorant afterwards.

Vests and discussion of "sway" on normal school days probably doesn't address the main issue.

A) OP's daughter avoids bullying by being "vocal" (I have RTFT, but I am cynical about on-thread back-pedalling!) about being braless, beforehand. Talking about one's underwear is socially inappropriate. If the daughter is going to carry on talking about being braless, vest-tops and camisoles can hardly solve the issue.

2. I don't know the specific changing facilities provided, but obviously its somewhat public changing, which meant she was topless when all the other girls weren't. I'm not sure if showering facilities are provided at all, but if a) they aren't provided, or; b) there are separate stalls,

the OP's daughter spends part of the PE period topless+knickers while everyone else is wearing a bra+knickers. This is the UK! It's quite possible that she made some/all of the other adolescent girls rather uncomfortable, which is why the teacher took her aside.

She needs to respect their boundaries and have a vest on for PE days. Simple as that.

Even if there is in fact joint showering, and they do all see each other nude post-PE, it is still relevant. There's a social awkwardness for adults of the same sex in public changing rooms when they find themselves to be clothed to a greater or lesser extent than another in the room. I'm sure it's not very Nordic but then, well, we aren't.

So, vest on for changing pre-PE.

You do realise the girls don't stand there in bra and knickers? Most of the girls do the top trick, so their bra/breasts never even show...

the OP's daughter spends part of the PE period topless+knickers while everyone else is wearing a bra+knickers.

Where on earth did you get that from? Braless doesn't mean topless. It means she wears the normal uniform/sports shirt but no bra underneath.

EmmelineW

sorry for the loss of your sister OP