DD's refusing to wear a bra, her Head of Year is saying she isn't allowed at school.

[EmmelineW]

DD is 14 (Yr 9) she tried a bra at 12, hated it and has refused to wear one since. She did try a sports bra, which she wore a couple of times in the day but now refuses and would only wear for PE. She's very confident and popular, so it hasn't ever caused any teasing (she normally makes a joke and is very vocal about not wearing one, she says that if she wasn't, she would be bullied because of it).

She had PE today, which was the first lesson she refused to wear her sports bra, she was told to not take part by her PE teacher - her PE teacher is very 'down with the kids' and mentioned it to her privately.

I would just like to say, previously to this, I was called in to make sure that she had a female role model to talk to about periods/bras as it had come to their attention, that was all cleared up.

Head of Year sent her home today because of it and said she isn't allowed back until she wears one, as it's put under the same category as having a short skirt. Where do we stand with this? Does it come under uniform issues? I'm not really sure what they're saying she can't come back for rule wise.

"Do boys chests wiggle and bounce when they move?
Are they rounded?
Are their nipples as big and protruding as female nipples?

No.
If they were, then boys chest would draw just as much attention."

I know it's weird. Why don't males chests wiggle and bounce? Why aren't they rounded with mostly bigger nipples that sometimes protrude? Why don't they produce milk for babies like the majority if chests do? Why do males have such weird chests that are different from the majority? Maybe they should hide their weird different chests away.

There have been many suggestions of vests, crop tops, etc. but it seems like OP is unwilling to consider this as a compromise?

I am assuming that OP's daughter wears a camisole instead of a bra, and that the actual covering of breasts this is not at all the issue. (Though boys are not required to do that, apparently, so it would still be sexist to demand it.)

So she has had some comments. Which she seems to be handling. I had quite bad acne as a teenager, which I had some unpleasant comments about. Should I have been taken to one side, told to sort it out or not come back? All for my own good of course...

Well, of course not, don't be silly. Boys get acne, too, and there's no deeply ingrained cultural notion that male acne is different from female acne, so they can't do that.

IT IS NOT A NIPPLE ISSUE

I know it's weird. Why don't males chests wiggle and bounce? Why aren't they rounded with mostly bigger nipples that sometimes protrude? Why don't they produce milk for babies like the majority if chests do? Why do males have such weird chests that are different from the majority? Maybe they should hide their weird different chests away.

Yeah, it is unsettling how they never seem to mature into adults and just stay this weird flat shape of children's chests all the damn time.

And while we are at it, those weird narrow hips - and then some actually wear trousers that emphasize those hips. It distracts girls. Shouldn't be allowed. Perhaps skirts would be a solution.

"No.
If they were, then boys chest would draw just as much attention."

This is the mindset that needs to be challenged. Why do males chests get seen as being normal, decent and how chests should look? You are saying that females chests are the opposite - not nomal so should be hidden away as shameful or indecent from what you consider to be the acceptable chests - male chests. That's exactly why many women are controlled and forced to cover up in burkas or hijabs.

So it's been left that either she wears a bra or she's not allowed back in lessons.

What's your plan?

The idea that girls should cover themselves so that the males won't be "distracted" ... that's the mindset that leads to burquas.

^ this is worth repeating - IMO it cuts to the essence of this "problem" the school have created.

The OP has already said that the nipples are not visible through the uniform shirt.
I congratulate her on supporting her daughter's right to be in control of her own body and not to conform mindlessly to others'expectations. That independent frame of mind will stand her in good stead when other, more harmful influences come to bear in her future life.

"Yeah, it is unsettling how they never seem to mature into adults and just stay this weird flat shape of children's chests all the damn time. "

Exactly, don't they get embarrrassed by their weird different undeveloped chests and want to hide them away? Flat undeveloped chests are just so different, bit embarrassing really. Put them away.

These boys should be taught not to look at women breast.

Teach them not to look? Really?
That has to be the stupidest thing I've ever read on MN.

Teenage Boys.
Hormones.
Pretty girls with jiggling bra less breasts.
And you want them to learn 'not to look'

IT IS NOT A NIPPLE ISSUE

Well if she's small of boob and it's not a nipple issue (as in gaping buttons/see through shirt) then I think the school are being unreasonable OP.

Yes teach them not to look at women breast.

I have a pair of breast. I also have a face and tbh I like to be talked to into my line of vision and not to my boobs.

Teach a young boy to have respect for a women and not just view them as a piece of meat for them to ogle at.

IT IS NOT A NIPPLE ISSUE

Well if she's small of boob and it's not a nipple issue (as in gaping buttons/see through shirt) then I think the school are being unreasonable OP.

Yes teach them not to look at women breast.

I have a pair of breast. I also have a face and tbh I like to be talked to into my line of vision and not to my boobs.

Teach a young boy to have respect for a women and not just view them as a piece of meat for them to ogle at.

good luck with that one

I know where I am breastfeeding is seen as a feminazi exhibitionist activity so women being encouraged to work outside of social norms is positive. I think teaching girls that they need to think, act and dress in accordance with their own personal values is positive even if others don't necessarily agree. It is certainly obvious how far apart people's opinions on this scenario lie from this thread so there is definitely absolutely no rights and wrongs.

Can I suggest you contact the Equality and Human Rights Commission? They can provide you with free legal advice if they decide this is a case they wish to take. I haven't read the whole thread but I think it is likely to be discriminatory to require a woman to wear a bra. Good luck.

Women have breasts. They are sexual organs - Yes! we know they feed babies too. Yes, they can be compared with genitalia as they are sexual and dual function also. So if you dress in the way that draws attention to your sexual organs (Olly Murs, Tom Jones as male examples) you are going to get noticed and by women and men -who some of you ridiculously think are rapists in waiting if they even glance at a woman below the chin. I was at a meeting recently when a woman had a spectacular cleavage and I found it hard to keep eye contact as they were in my peripheral vision.

Women have breasts. They are sexual organs - Yes! we know they feed babies too.

Breasts are not sexual organs.They are not at all involved in the conception of children, i.e. sex. Yes, men fetishize them, but some men also do that with feet. Are feet therefore a sexual organ? No, they are not.

Breasts are for feeding babies, and that's it.

Well my breasts were involved in my babies conceptions. I get highly aroused when my nipples and breasts are stimulated, is that unnatural of me?. If fact a midwife suggested my DH stimulate my nipples to reactivate my slowing labour (she did leave the room for this process though).

Are our tongues sexual organs too then?

No. But they are a good tool for doing the stimulating ;)

I must be weird but having my feet, back and arms stroked is much more pleasurable than having my breasts touched. My feet, back and arms must be sexual organs and should be covered presumably.

Actually vestal, I think you've assumed incorrectly re the camisole

Breasts are not sexual organs

Only in the sense breasts don't actually get pregnant. I think many women and researchers would disagree that breasts are not sexual organs.

Women can achieve orgasm just by niplle and breast stimulation. It's not a rare phenomenon. Men can't

Some of you are so funny. I have really enjoyed some of the posts on this thread.

Back to the OP though. Sometimes we have to conform so just get your daughter to go along with what the school have asked, and she is free to go free in her own time. It is called compromise, a skill that she will need ad an adult.