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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

DD's refusing to wear a bra, her Head of Year is saying she isn't allowed at school.

999 replies

EmmelineW · 21/07/2016 15:40

DD is 14 (Yr 9) she tried a bra at 12, hated it and has refused to wear one since. She did try a sports bra, which she wore a couple of times in the day but now refuses and would only wear for PE. She's very confident and popular, so it hasn't ever caused any teasing (she normally makes a joke and is very vocal about not wearing one, she says that if she wasn't, she would be bullied because of it).

She had PE today, which was the first lesson she refused to wear her sports bra, she was told to not take part by her PE teacher - her PE teacher is very 'down with the kids' and mentioned it to her privately.

I would just like to say, previously to this, I was called in to make sure that she had a female role model to talk to about periods/bras as it had come to their attention, that was all cleared up.

Head of Year sent her home today because of it and said she isn't allowed back until she wears one, as it's put under the same category as having a short skirt. Where do we stand with this? Does it come under uniform issues? I'm not really sure what they're saying she can't come back for rule wise.

OP posts:

Thread gallery

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 24/07/2016 15:42

Well, they do seem a bit overenthusiastic about bras being the only cause for breast cancer

I meant generally bollocks, not just in its bra related advice.

flupcake · 24/07/2016 15:42

Who said there were boys drooling and ogling? Nobody! It was just commented that teenage boys would find it hard not to notice (just notice, nothing else) if a girl was bra-less, and others commented that they should control themselves and not act like animals.
My point is that it's quite normal to notice and be attracted to other people's bodies, I do and I am sure most people do. (Poldark being a good example!)
I am not ogling or drooling, and I am not an animal, I am not about to leap on someone, or make suggestive comments. But to say that we shouldn't even be noticing?

Bambambini · 24/07/2016 15:43

"Nobody 'teaches' men to notice breasts. They just do. They always have and they always will.
I have teenage boys and I certainly never taught them to ogle breasts.
I know this isn't a very feminist thing to say, but I think that males are biologically hardwired to notice breasts. They can't not look at them."

Do boys chests not draw attention? Do wimen and girls not notice men's chests? Why is the male body seen as the norm or default - it's women's bodies that are unusual and otherly and wonen who need to cobform more and hide away. We are more than half the population but are not the norm.

Notagainmun · 24/07/2016 15:49

Hell if it was wrong for people not to notice others (sexually attractive) the human race would have ended eons ago. Teenagers are learning to cope with new sexual feelings (most of them discretely - appart from the odd idiot) so if the school feels a pupils' dress code or behaviour is inappropriate for the environment they should act accordingly.

mathsmum314 · 24/07/2016 15:51

Women oggle men's bodies just as much, but boys chests are flat so women dont tend to oggle until the shirt comes off. AND they do Oggle.

Ever noticed Saturday night family TV shows that have a physical element etc. On comes a very fit man, que the female comments about his pecks and abs, then man is actually told to get his shirt off and of course female presenter starts rubbing him whilst giggling like a schoolgirl.

Imagine if a male presenter did that to a female contestant. Hypocrisy much?

fuckindosomething · 24/07/2016 15:52

Who said there were boys drooling and ogling?

Do you notice, ogle, drool, make comments, make the other person feel uncomfortable or do you notice, look away, get on with your business and do nothing that makes someone else feel bad.

There we go.

fuckindosomething · 24/07/2016 15:57

Do boys chests not draw attention?

Do boys chests wiggle and bounce when they move?
Are they rounded?
Are their nipples as big and protruding as female nipples?

No.
If they were, then boys chest would draw just as much attention.

As well as feeding young, female breasts are meant to draw the attention of males.
Before we started walking upright it was rounded buttocks that excited the males and signalled fertillity. Breasts perform a similar function.

fuckindosomething · 24/07/2016 15:59

This is the best comment on this discussion. It sums it all up perfectly.

Original poster

EmmelineW · 24/07/2016 15:59

DD and I both have flat nipples, so they're less noticeable that boys! Also, what about overweight men, theirs move...?

OP posts:

ethelb · 24/07/2016 16:02

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

fuckindosomething · 24/07/2016 16:02

Also, what about overweight men, theirs move...?

I'm sorry, but I've yet to hear anybody say they're turned on by the sight of Moobs

VestalVirgin · 24/07/2016 16:02

Yeah, weird thing that, isn't it? I wonder why that is so ...

I do notice that men's bodies are different. I notice the flat chest and small hips that are different from my own body. I just act like a civilised, mature adult about it.

fuckindosomething · 24/07/2016 16:05

And why is this thread all about the poor menz? Fwiw I read the OP and immediately thought that other than PE teachers, any teacher realising what underwear their pupils are wearing is a child protection issue surely?

No.
I see it as the teacher trying to protect the child.
There have obviously been comments made about the braless girl. It's come to the teacher's attention and she is trying to protect the interests of the child.
The teacher IS following Safeguarding guidelines.
The right ones.

VestalVirgin · 24/07/2016 16:05

I'm sorry, but I've yet to hear anybody say they're turned on by the sight of Moobs

So, you think being aesthetically offensive is okay, but doing anything that might turn someone on is a no-go?

You know, some people are turned on by people being smart, or kind, or funny. I suppose girls should be banned from answering the teachers' questions, helping other pupils and telling jokes at school. After all, it could turn some boy on, and clearly, boys are the only people whose feelings count.

VestalVirgin · 24/07/2016 16:09

There have obviously been comments made about the braless girl.

This is not at all obvious. Emmeline stated that her daughter is, in fact, very popular and no one teases her about not wearing a bra.

Perhaps some cowards complained that they want to bully her but don't dare to because she's so popular, and the teacher has decided that the would-be bullies are right and it is not fair for her to be comfortable without being bullied about it.

A teenager is old enough to decide for herself if she wants to give in to what the bullies would have her do. A teacher should not let herself be made an accomplice to bullying.

fuckindosomething · 24/07/2016 16:09

We live in a society where underwear is the norm.
Bra and pants are classed as underwear.
Wear underwear.

EveOnline2016 · 24/07/2016 16:13

It makes no sense that a female has to change what she is or isn't wearing because of how males view her.

These boys should be taught not to look at women breast. If that is the reason behind this.

What is this teaching this girl. That even though bra make her uncomfortable she has to wear one to make others feel comfortable.

I have looked at my uniform policy (nhs) and nowhere does it state what under garments to wear.

ethelb · 24/07/2016 16:14

Fukindo what would those safeguarding guidelines be pray tell? I do hope you are not suggesting the daughter is exhibiting inappropriately sexualised behaviour by not wearing a bra (which many people of her age may not even need).

So she has had some comments. Which she seems to be handling. I had quite bad acne as a teenager, which I had some unpleasant comments about. Should I have been taken to one side, told to sort it out or not come back? All for my own good of course....

paxamdays · 24/07/2016 16:19

OP I can kind of understand wearing a bra with regards to PE. When I was in school a sports bra was 'recommended' for PE I certainly couldn't do sports without one, I find it painful. Having said that there was a girl in my year who didn't wear a bra at all until around year 10 and she was rather voluptuous, you could see through her shirt too. I don't think anything was ever said to her.

With regards to her being excluded from school in September if she doesn't wear one, I'm not sure if they could do that if its not stated in the uniform policy.

But also, why does she find them so uncomfortable? There are many styles around these days, surely you could both find one that feels comfortable for her? That's assuming it is definitely a comfort thing rather than a flat out refusal to wear one. But if that is the case then it's her choice and it should be respected. Very different but my DS (6) hates wearing jeans because they're 'itchy' so I don't make him wear them.

Hope you can resolve the issue with the school and your DD doesn't feel pressured.

ethelb · 24/07/2016 16:19

What age do we have to wear bras btw? And at what age are we old enough to decide whether or not we want to?

Someone please quantify this crazy thread for me, please!?

DoinItFine · 24/07/2016 16:20

I may be wrong here but if someone brought a lawyer in and started a fight with the school, can't the school just amend the uniform policy to clarify the issue.

You are wrong if you think a school including bra soecifications for girls wouldn't strengthen the case the lawyer was taking.

ethelb · 24/07/2016 16:26

And the school couldn't change the uniform policy retrospectively, and would have to admit the previous suspension and treatment was unfair sex discrimination.

I would love a lawyer to spell this out to the pervert misogynistic teachers at that school.

0nTheEdge · 24/07/2016 16:27

There seems to be a lot of debating about whether or not boys do or should look, and whether or not females should consider what they wear because of this. This to me is a separate debate, although a valid and emotive one. don't seem to recall it being mentioned anywhere that the problem here in this instance was lusty boys? It seems to me more of a school uniform issue and what is appropriate or not for school. Would this not be the same in an all girls school? If the schools problem is with nipples being visible through semi see through shirts, breasts showing through button gape, etc. then I'm sorry but I can see their point. If it's just a case of the school have found out she's not wearing a bra and are trying to make her conform, then I side with OP. There have been many suggestions of vests, crop tops, etc. but it seems like OP is unwilling to consider this as a compromise? I think it's quite hard to know what the solution is without the full story.

DoinItFine · 24/07/2016 16:35

If the schools problem is with nipples being visible through semi see through shirts

That's a shirt problem.

As is the gaping buttons issue.

There is no bra needed to solve either.

MarklahMarklah · 24/07/2016 16:35

I didn't wear a bra until I was 19. I found them too uncomfortable and I have small boobs. I used to wear crop vest top things.
Never got sent home from school for that.
I did get sent home for wearing a skirt in the 'wrong shade of navy blue' though

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