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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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DD's refusing to wear a bra, her Head of Year is saying she isn't allowed at school.

999 replies

EmmelineW · 21/07/2016 15:40

DD is 14 (Yr 9) she tried a bra at 12, hated it and has refused to wear one since. She did try a sports bra, which she wore a couple of times in the day but now refuses and would only wear for PE. She's very confident and popular, so it hasn't ever caused any teasing (she normally makes a joke and is very vocal about not wearing one, she says that if she wasn't, she would be bullied because of it).

She had PE today, which was the first lesson she refused to wear her sports bra, she was told to not take part by her PE teacher - her PE teacher is very 'down with the kids' and mentioned it to her privately.

I would just like to say, previously to this, I was called in to make sure that she had a female role model to talk to about periods/bras as it had come to their attention, that was all cleared up.

Head of Year sent her home today because of it and said she isn't allowed back until she wears one, as it's put under the same category as having a short skirt. Where do we stand with this? Does it come under uniform issues? I'm not really sure what they're saying she can't come back for rule wise.

OP posts:
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littlerabbitface · 23/07/2016 10:32

*Why are we blaming everything on men?

Because in nine cases out of ten, males are to blame?

Sure, there are many women who use the harrassing males as justification for forcing other women to wear bras, but if those males weren't there, then that would not be possible.
The women would actually have to admit that it is just their own random ideas of what is good and proper that they want to enforce.*

Hang on. Which men was it that dictated we should all wear bras?

I'm lost.

I've never been told what to wear by any man! I'm not sure any man would give a shit if I wore a bra or not. To be fair, I always wear a bra because I don't want tits by my knees, my problem though, not doing it for a man.

PaulDacresMicroPenis · 23/07/2016 10:33

checks watch
Isn't it time for the op to pop back with a short comment?

differentnameforthis · 23/07/2016 10:33

If she's so outspoken now and refuses to 'conform' good luck to her in getting a job in the future. I hope she doesn't want to work anywhere with a dress code.

Really? refusing to wear a bra is not the same as refusing to wear a uniform. The school haven't said anything about her uniform, so how is she refusing to "conform" here?

Oh yes, and God forbid women/girls know what they want & aren't afraid to say what that is. Since when is being outspoken a bad thing??

Greenyogagirl · 23/07/2016 10:35

Be outspoken about something that matters. Telling hundreds of hormonal teenagers she doesn't wear a bra on a regular basis is not big or clever. It's attention seeking.

littlerabbitface · 23/07/2016 10:40

Really? refusing to wear a bra is not the same as refusing to wear a uniform. The school haven't said anything about her uniform, so how is she refusing to "conform" here?

Oh yes, and God forbid women/girls know what they want & aren't afraid to say what that is. Since when is being outspoken a bad thing??

She's refusing to wear a bra this time, what if the next thing is a skirt that's uncomfy a top that she doesn't like. What if she wanted to be a teacher, doctor etc, not being funny but you'd probably get fired for indecency eventually if you continues refusing and showing your nipples.

Being outspoken isn't always a bad thing but she's drawing attention to herself unnecessarily. If she didn't tell everyone she was braless nobody would probably know or give a shit. It wouldn't be an issue.

Yes maybe things shouldn't be like this but they are. You can't walk into work in a bikini because that's what you like wearing, you're not comfortable in clothes.

AnchorDownDeepBreath · 23/07/2016 10:40

Vestal thanks for the reply - genuinely. I think I was a bit defensive!

You're right, of course, sooner or later she'll probably have to choose between a career and her wish not to wear a bra but until then it should be her choice.

timelytess · 23/07/2016 10:40

Haven't read the whole thread, but enough.
Some of the posts are demonstrating 'MN at its most ridiculous'.

I am a former long-term breastfeeder (one child, four years three months feeding), and volunteer breastfeeding counsellor (twelve years) so I am aware of the functionality of breasts.

I am a former secondary school teacher (two schools, twenty-one years) so I have experience of the school environment and of young people.

I am a feminist. Perhaps not like the ones you meet today, but a feminist all the same.

The 'she should swing free' camp are talking total and utter crap.

Breasts don't just have a single function. They have a secondary, but important, function. That is, to attract the attention of males to promote the female's chances of breeding. No matter how loud you shout, MN, that is the plain fact.

During the few years just after puberty the instinct to make sexual contact is very strong, for young women and for men. In this period, they are in secondary school. They are still legally children but they have adult desires, often unformed, often unexpected. Sometimes the nature and extent of the sexual interest in each other is embarrassing for them and for others around them, for example, for young people who have not yet passed through puberty, or for those who, quite reasonably, just want such things to be private.

Saying this is not so, or ought not to be so, won't make it go away. It isn't 'sexualisation'. Its nature, the way it is before society gets to it.

The way forward is to teach young men and women to respect themselves and each other, whilst simultaneously providing a 'safe' environment. Schools support their safe environment by encouraging, or insisting, that pupils wear uniform. All the standard clothing worn by adults in a formal environment is included.

And that includes underwear.

The (even unspoken) rules extend to teachers, too. I've known staff be 'spoken to' about being braless or wearing inappropriate clothing.

OP, insist your dd wears a bra for school. At home, she can do as she likes. But school is a place of work, and the formalities protect the boundaries between pupils and between pupils and staff.

[And the poster who said she has married a man who doesn't look at women's breasts - one way or another, you are going to be disappointed.]

tinybellows · 23/07/2016 10:42

Tell the school to introduce a uniform that can't be seen through.

Isn't that the only issue?

littlerabbitface · 23/07/2016 10:43

Why should the school change the uniform and expect every parent to buy a new set? Just for one child who doesn't want to wear a bra.

What's wrong with a vest if crop top underneath?

Bravada · 23/07/2016 10:44

Hm ok. Yes just re-read OP's posts and saw that she is 'vocal' about it. I don't get the logic of, if she wasn't vocal about it, she would be bullied. If she didn't mention it, I doubt anyone would notice. Nipples still show through bras and blouses on a cold day. Is her blouse so see-through that the actual colour is visible rather than the form? If so, buy thicker blouses for her perhaps. You are her mother, have a look at her. I wouldn't let my teenage daughter go out with the pink of her nipples visible, to be honest, regardless of how much of a feminist I am.

If it's not about actually seeing nipples but just about bouncing around, I think just tell her to stop mentioning it. And probably no one will notice. There are many times when I have gone without a bra, I'm sure most women do, even if I am a double D, and sometimes it has been commented upon but that is due to absence of strap rather than anything else. I don't think she should have to wear a bra if it is uncomfortable for her, but there are lovely comfy ones (as I have discovered since pregnancy and now loathe to go back to the old ones).

Boobs still bounce around in bras as well. Unless her blouses are completely see-through I struggle to see how the teachers would verify whether or not she was wearing one. I find it extremely extremely odd that the teachers have got involved in this to be honest.

flumpybear · 23/07/2016 10:44

What about the poor boys and their ranging hormones?! Whether you like it or not there are s lot of boys, and men, who are turned on by breasts, having a C cup is quite big for a school girl, and I'd suspect needs support otherwise they would move around and be obvious I'd guess. Girl shaped blouses are often more fitted, perhaps more clingy around the bust, potentially showing breast outline and nipples.

If boys were wearing white tight shorts and no underwear and you could see the size and shape of their penis' I'm sure the sports teacher would tell them it's not acceptable

As with tight school trousers on boys with no underwear - if it's obvious to see their dick through their trousers perhaps even erections when sitting next to the girl with no bra! It's not really something school is trying to promote I'm sure!

BathshebaDarkstone · 23/07/2016 10:45

I've always found bras uncomfortable, just now at 49 after bfing 4 DC I'm getting to the point where I need one. Unless she has huge tits, what's the school's excuse for making her wear one?

Beeziekn33ze · 23/07/2016 10:49

Primary school colleague was asked to wear a different bra to school, by female head, as hers showed her nipples. She was hurt and upset but did so. Those of us who'd assumed it was accidental were, I gather, naive!

GiddyOnZackHunt · 23/07/2016 10:49

Darn. I wish I'd figured out this was a way to get out of PE when I was at school...

StressedAndConfusedArgh · 23/07/2016 10:52

I'm honestly shocked by this thread. I never (or rarely) wear a bra and I certainly would not class myself as an attention seeker. I'll mention it if it comes up in conversation as I'm not embarrassed by it particularly, but won't bring up the topic myself. I'm assuming OP's DD is the same. So far it has not affected my career and I've never been bullied.

I don't understand the point of view that women must wear bras otherwise 'it's not fair on the men'. Where do we draw the line with this? What if I give a man an erection because he finds my ankles pretty? My smile? Should I cover these up too? This is the logical conclusion of that reasoning. I, for one, don't want to live in a society which reaches those conclusions.

Bravada · 23/07/2016 10:53

Pretty sure Serena still had a bra on. Shocker, we all have nipples.

DD's refusing to wear a bra, her Head of Year is saying she isn't allowed at school.
EmmelineW · 23/07/2016 10:55

Hang on, a lot of you are missing the point about how vocal she is. She doesn't wak in to class and go "guess what everyone, no bra again today!" She literally just says to her friends/new friends "oh, I don't like wearing a bra" by vocal I meant that she doesn't try and hide the fact she doesn't wear one. I hate the kind of labels you're giving my daughter.

What's me coming back for a short line got to do with it?? I'm very busy!! I'm not really sure what questions there is for me to answer anyway.

OP posts:
OrianaBanana · 23/07/2016 10:57

Is it just the PE teacher who mentioned it? It seems the rest of the time there isn't a problem which suggests to me it's more about potential damage to her breasts from inadequate support when doing high impact sports than a larger issue. I'd be concerned too.

flumpybear · 23/07/2016 10:57

Stressed - boys at that age get erections frequently, unlike men whose hormones have settled somewhat
Also she's been vocal - whatever that means - but sounds more like bragging or attention seeking rather than just not wearing a bra because you don't need one ... Wrong platform at school to have this vocalisation on the subject (unless its class debate of course)

StressedAndConfusedArgh · 23/07/2016 10:57

EmmelineW That's what I assumed you meant by vocal. I'm not sure why some posters seem so keen to make out that your daughter is shouting it from the rooftops when that's not what you implied at all.

EmmelineW · 23/07/2016 10:58

No, her PE teacher is the one who took her to her Head of Year, when she said she wasn't allowed to do PE and her Head of Year said "you need to be wearing one anyway"

OP posts:
StressedAndConfusedArgh · 23/07/2016 11:00

flumpybear however do those poor boys cope at the beach?! I don't see why it's up to women to help save these boys from embarrassment. I wouldn't mock them and wouldn't draw attention to it, but I wouldn't make myself uncomfortable to MAYBE save one teenage boy some embarrassment once. Maybe.

And you don't seem to see that burqas are the logical continuation of this line of reasoning.

primitivemom · 23/07/2016 11:01

I think it is appropriate to wear at least a crop top, I would insist tbh Hmm

StressedAndConfusedArgh · 23/07/2016 11:01

primitivemom Why?

JackieAndHyde4eva · 23/07/2016 11:06

This thread is batshit.

Girl must wear bra to prevent all the boys getting the horn. Well so fuck if they do get the horn! They get it for all sorts of reasons and they deal with it and survive. One girl starting to wear a bra will not change this. And nor is it her responsibility to change it. If people are bullying her or treating her disgustingly then those people are the problem. Their behaviours are the unnacceptable thing here. She has breasts whether they have a bra on them or not. The bra doesnt stop shitheads being shitheads, they'll just find something else to be a shithead about or move on to some other girl to bully. Thats what needs dealing with. Her breasts are not the issue.