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Original poster

DD's refusing to wear a bra, her Head of Year is saying she isn't allowed at school.

999 replies

EmmelineW · 21/07/2016 15:40

DD is 14 (Yr 9) she tried a bra at 12, hated it and has refused to wear one since. She did try a sports bra, which she wore a couple of times in the day but now refuses and would only wear for PE. She's very confident and popular, so it hasn't ever caused any teasing (she normally makes a joke and is very vocal about not wearing one, she says that if she wasn't, she would be bullied because of it).

She had PE today, which was the first lesson she refused to wear her sports bra, she was told to not take part by her PE teacher - her PE teacher is very 'down with the kids' and mentioned it to her privately.

I would just like to say, previously to this, I was called in to make sure that she had a female role model to talk to about periods/bras as it had come to their attention, that was all cleared up.

Head of Year sent her home today because of it and said she isn't allowed back until she wears one, as it's put under the same category as having a short skirt. Where do we stand with this? Does it come under uniform issues? I'm not really sure what they're saying she can't come back for rule wise.

OP posts:
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buckingfrolicks · 23/07/2016 10:00

Tits au naturel are distracting and unprofessional? What I find unprofessional are bras that shove breasts up, and out and put breasts on display in a way that IS attention seeking.

Women's whole bodies are 'on display', judged and sexualised - the OP's DD has a good 15 years ahead of her where men and women will judge her bum, thighs, camel toe, waist, hair, lips- and breasts. It's appalling and part of the absolutely undeniable sexualisation that is imposed on women between puberty and the menopause. To bra or not to bra, is just the start of it.

The school is wrong, the DD is right and I'd be incredibly proud of her if she were mine

differentnameforthis · 23/07/2016 10:02

"societal rules" about wearing a bra? Really? Because I have never heard such claptrap!

What you mean is, is that YOU don't like seeing women not wearing bras. I couldn't give a shit if a woman in my office is wearing a bra or not, and downright envy my friend who has had a reconstruction after a double mastectomy, as she never wears a bra now!

It isn't like they are waling around with nothing on at all, is it. People need to stop being so hung up on body image.

buckingfrolicks · 23/07/2016 10:02

Bobramble - yes I agree, but there needs to be women and men who bring that shit to society's attention and challenge it - not just conform in fear. Otherwise women would still be wearing corsets

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2016 10:03

would you be ok about a woman going bra less in your DH's place of work

I wouldn't marry a man who stares at other women's breasts, braless or not, so I have no idea why one would think that was an issue.

In fact, I would be delighted if my (hypothetical) husband worked in a place where his coworkers were braless, hairy-legged feminists. Some jobs mean that coworkers visit you at home, and it would be nice if his coworkers were people I can actually talk to. Wink

Bravada · 23/07/2016 10:05

How do they know that she isn't wearing one??

BoBramble · 23/07/2016 10:08

bucking I agree with what you're saying, but would you still be happy for your DD to be on the receiving end of this scrutiny? I've spent the best part of a whole academic year addressing the inappropriateness of a large group of lads' comments to a fellow pupil. Because she dared to be shapely and confident (no push up bra, standard school uniform). I've had to challenge parents and their malignant attitudes (boys will be boys, she should be flattered, she's getting off on it, she flaunts herself, little Jimmy is being teased - I kid you not). The girl works hard and just wants to be left alone.

It's fine to want our children to have strength and make a stand, but by God, too many others will make her pay for that.

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2016 10:09

Genuine question: If you knew for certain how sexually charged some year groups are, how boundaries are being not just tested but literally demolished, that the sexual landscape for teenagers is now changed forever thank you porn industry and Internet would you be so single minded about your daughters going bra less at school?

I always went to school braless, and it was by no means a exemplary good school. In fact, I was bullied - but never about the lack of bra.

Perhaps the fact that I wore sweaters even in summer, as I was very awaer of male gaze, contributed to no one even noticing that I didn't wear a bra.

A bra sexualizes breasts. Sagging breasts that point opposite directions instead of being pushed up and together by a bra are not considered sexy by most males, and if your breasts are small, they will seem even smaller and less noticeable without bra.

Theydontknowweknowtheyknow · 23/07/2016 10:09

"In the other universe, people adjust what they wear to the social context they are in. They accept that some things make others uncomfortable or are inappropriate, and understand that if teachers are concerned enough to bother contacting home about an issue then it needs addressing. She needs to wear a bra."

Replace the word "bra" with "burqha" and see how it sounds.

OP, have you looked up Sav Brown, a young vlogger who did a video on going braless. She made me quite hopeful that there are such principled young women out there, of which your daughter is obviously one Smile

BoBramble · 23/07/2016 10:11

Cross posted bucking.
Not enough of us challenging the norm, though. Not enough to change the tide. I wouldn't endorse DD to do so either because I do not trust others to educate their own DC.

BoBramble · 23/07/2016 10:14

Perhaps the fact that I wore sweaters even in summer, as I was very awaer of male gaze, contributed to no one even noticing that I didn't wear a bra.

Vestal, this is why it was a non-issue for you. Wearing a jumper even in the summer isn't really the answer, is it?

Greenyogagirl · 23/07/2016 10:14

If she isn't large chested why would she go round telling everyone she doesn't wear one?
Either she's small chested and it's not noticeable.
She's fair chested and nipples are seen through shirt.
She's large chested and making a big deal about going braless.

I'm with the school to be honest, she's made it a big deal so the school have noticed. Had she not mentioned it no-one would have known.

Floggingmolly · 23/07/2016 10:17

Because she is telling everyone, Bravada. Pretty much constantly, by the sound of things Hmm. There appears to be a large element of attention seeking involved - not wearing a bra is one thing, being very vocal about not wearing one as op describes sounds like the child has issues.
Why the need to draw attention to herself by shoving it in people's faces?
School is not a platform for that sort of "self expression"

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2016 10:18

Not enough of us challenging the norm, though. Not enough to change the tide. I wouldn't endorse DD to do so either because I do not trust others to educate their own DC.

There's not being keen on your children being threatened, and there's teaching them cowardice.

OP's daughter is already challenging sexist norms, and seems quite happy to do so. The only shit she gets for this is apparently by this Head of Year.
She should be supported, not told to submit to shitty societal norms.

The father of Malala Yousafzai (you may have heard of her, she advocated for girls getting an education) was accused of encouraging (or even pushing) her to speak out, which in this case was somewhat justified because she was shot in the head. Would you rather she had kept her head down and just submitted to Islamist oppression?

If the worst a girl can get for standing up for womankind is some bullying, then let her do it -lots of girls are bullied despite conforming in every possible way.

Becky546 · 23/07/2016 10:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

littlerabbitface · 23/07/2016 10:19

Why are we blaming everything on men?

If she doesn't want to wear a bra nobody can make her, she probably should though for her own good because she'll be moaning at 25 when her backs killing her.

If her tops see through she should at least be wearing a vest. I don't want to see anyone's nipples thank you whether they are male or female.

If she's so outspoken now and refuses to 'conform' good luck to her in getting a job in the future. I hope she doesn't want to work anywhere with a dress code.

Whether you think breasts should be sexualised or not (and let's face it we all know they shouldn't be) - they are. There's no getting away from it and although yes it is 2016 and we should all be able to wear/do whatever we want, we can't. A lot of people still find things like this inappropriate.

Floggingmolly · 23/07/2016 10:19

Standing up for womankind?? Sweet Jesus Hmm

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2016 10:21

Vestal, this is why it was a non-issue for you. Wearing a jumper even in the summer isn't really the answer, is it?

It is what I did to avoid the male gaze. You suggest that girls should dress to avoid male gaze and harrassment.

Wearing a bra does not avoid the male gaze as efficiently as a jumper. In fact, I would think it does absolutely nothing to achieve that goal. It puts the breasts on display.

I really don't see why we discuss the possible reactions of the boys at school here - OP mentioned that "She's very confident and popular, so it hasn't ever caused any teasing".
So, there is no problem. It's just that the Head of Year wants her to shut up.

differentnameforthis · 23/07/2016 10:21

Should point out that I envy my friend's ability to go braless, not her medical condition.

Greenyogagirl · 23/07/2016 10:23

Standing up for womankind?! How? By wearing the correct uniform and telling everyone she doesn't wear a bra?
I'm not wearing knickers today, I'm standing up for womankind!

Most schools have hair/jewellery/uniform policy. (For boys and girls!) They probably assumed wearing underwear was common sense or if someone wasn't wearing any they wouldn't go around attention seeking.

AnchorDownDeepBreath · 23/07/2016 10:24

Vestal and Bucking I can't get my head round your point about bras sexualising breasts, or push up bras being worst. How would you even know someone was wearing a push up bra?! I have a cleavage with any bra at all, even a sports bra, because my boobs are naturally close. They don't point in other directions. I wear a bra because, as I said earlier in the thread, I think life would be uncomfortable without one and I also think I'd get a lot of unwanted attention! And I'd probably be stopped from visiting client sites. Is the argument that bras sexualise breasts, if they improve the appearance?

I went to the end of the road without a bra on on Tuesday. It was boiling and I didn't want to get dressed again to nip out for a moment. It's literally a two minute walk. I wore a big shirt, but I think the movement makes it clear I don't have a bra on, and i seemed to attract a lot of attention even in my quiet little village. I won't do it again!

A bra wasn't presented to me as a choice so I'm thinking about this properly for the first time, but I don't understand how it's actually possible to not wear one and not damage your career. And the answer seems to be that it depends on what your breasts look like, but if they are at all close together or high, you'll be sexualising yourself whether you wear a bra or not.

Ironically the only two people in real life that I know who don't regularly wear a bra are those who have had breast enlargements and have large, firm boobs that don't really move, so don't need a bra to support them.

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2016 10:24

Why are we blaming everything on men?

Because in nine cases out of ten, males are to blame?

Sure, there are many women who use the harrassing males as justification for forcing other women to wear bras, but if those males weren't there, then that would not be possible.
The women would actually have to admit that it is just their own random ideas of what is good and proper that they want to enforce.

BeMorePanda · 23/07/2016 10:24

Everyone knows because when she gets changed for PE it's obvious.

ijustwannadance · 23/07/2016 10:24

An adult choosing to wear/not wear a bra is different to a growing teenager making it very obvious she isn't wearing one in an environment full of teenage boys and expecting those boys to not behave like normal, curious teens and not to look.

Yes it is shit to have to conform somtimes but in certain situations, and in certain places, you need to take responsibility for your own behaviour if it's causing issues. It's a secondary school. If a teacher continuously walked round braless in a thin white blouse after being asked not to she would be fired.

OhGodWhatTheHellNow · 23/07/2016 10:25

Eyes are drawn to movement, it can be quite difficult to not look, albeit briefly, at a jiggling chest Blush
Fwiw I was braless to the end of sixth form, I doubt anyone noticed (this was a source of much teenage angst.)

I do find this interesting in the context of 6 year old girls wearing crop tops and shorts 'for modesty' . Very mixed up.

VestalVirgin · 23/07/2016 10:30

I can't get my head round your point about bras sexualising breasts, or push up bras being worst. How would you even know someone was wearing a push up bra?! I have a cleavage with any bra at all, even a sports bra, because my boobs are naturally close.

I didn't mention push up bras. You are right; I wouldn't know. The cleavage is there with or without push up effect.

It is just that I think most women would not have cleavage without a bra. I certainly do not.

You are of course right about the attention it gets. (Though I think it is a very different kind of attention than a miniskirt gets)
I know I only get away with not wearing a bra because I have small breasts and no career to speak of.

But that isn't the way things should be.

We are talking about a schoolgirl. She has no career yet. She may choose to wear a bra in order to get a job later - but why force her to do it now?