to suspect that this DH is living like a guest in his own home?

[Madinche1sea]

So this morning at breakfast, while DH was "ordering" his particular- style of protein omelette (😐), DD (aged 7) looked at him and said,

"Daddy do you think you're a guest in this house or something?"

Her comment got me thinking, but AIBU to think that DH could, in fact, be making his own breakfast (or dinner or doing anything else housework-related for that matter)?

We have 4 DC under 12 so the mornings are fairly full-on and I tend to need to be super-organised to get everyone out. We have 4 kids in 3 different schools. I should start by saying that I'm SAHM and since our youngest started school last Sept, can get some time to myself in the day now. DH works very long hours and travels a fair bit which is why I'm fine to do most of the house-related stuff. However....

DH does not cook AT ALL. On top of this, he is always involved in some kind of training schedule for some ridiculous event (like running 100 miles in the Sahara or something like this), so is usually on some particular diet which I am expected to cater for. I don't think he's ever ironed anything - I take his shirts/ suits to the dry-cleaners or iron his other stuff, but he never passes comment about how things appear ready to wear in his wardrobe.

I do have a cleaner who comes in twice a week and, to be fair to DH, he always tells me to get her in more so I can take more time for myself. But I don't bother because most of the mess is in the evenings once the kids are in anyway.

If not overseas with work, DH goes to his boxing club one night a week. He plays rugby on Sundays usually, plus goes on early morning runs most days. I don't mind any of this as he has a very stressful job and needs to unwind, but it does make family life more hectic - particularly with morning routines and all the stuff the kids do on weekends.

He usually comes in about 8 ish to "put the kids to bed" ie. joke about with them, cuddles etc once I have actually got them in the beds and everything else is done! Then we will have dinner together. He will usually do a few more hours work after this while I'm clearing up, sorting out kids school clothes and stuff for the next day. We go to bed about 11-12 usually.

I do have to say he is generally very thoughtful and lovely - for instance, he insists on taking me on "date-nights" at least every other week which he organises and books the babysitter for. He is actually better than me at prioritising our relationship and I appreciate this as it can be difficult with 4 kids.

Sometimes though, I feel as if he is living in a parallel universe, with no idea about the logistics of 4 kids, homework, after school clubs, shopping and general life skills. AIBI?

Nelly - very concisely put thankyou! Old habits are hard to break though. He did once have a go at the coffee machine, but that was a one off. He's always very respectful to me though and as I say, he's lovely when he's home. I don't know - it's a dynamic we're in I guess. It just would not occur to him. Also he is British, but half-Iranian and half-Argentinian and his mother always did everything (The Iranian one). He's not Muslim though.

TheAnti - God knows what he'll be like when he retires! He says he is going to retire in 5 years, but I'll believe that when I see it.

If he's a workaholic I doubt it!!

It's a key fracture point in a marriage. Bear in mind when he retires he will have plans as to what he wants to do. Make sure they don't involve you continuing as you are.

...it's not for us. I would like to work though if I'm honest - for myself, but also because people can be very judgemental about the kind of life I lead otherwise. But, the kids will always come first.

First off, never do anything to avoid perceived judgement of others. Other people are not that important.

Secondly, you will never regret putting the children first. You are contributing to society in a massive way by preparing your children for adult life.

However, find something you can do in your own hours, at your own speed, so that you won't be facing a reinvention of yourself at 50.

Get your qualifications up to muster and get back into psychology. You might be able to see clients privately. Or could you set up a consulting business/practice for CMs or other nursery schools or childcare operations, assisting with 'best practice' solutions or training of staff?

Madinche - I think, and do tell me if I'm wrong, that what happened is that your daughter held up a mirror to your life today, and you didn't really like what you saw in it. It's made you feel uncomfortable.

And yet, you're still defending it to the hilt (with the small exceptions of looking again at how you could manage to work as well) - is this because you don't want to feel uncomfortable? Or because you don't want to rock the boat? or because you're TRULY happy with the way things are in your family and you don't want your DD to feel sorry for you?

I think (again) that you're not entirely comfortable with the situation and that this has brought that discomfort to the surface again. If this IS the case, then the answer is in your hands - you can continue to feel uncomfortable with the way your life is, or you can seek to make changes.

Your DH sounds like a traditionalist, brought up by a traditionalist - doesn't mean he has to stay that way. Perhaps ask him if he would be happy to see his daughter in a situation like yours, or whether he sees that her life should be different? And maybe challenge a few of his assumptions along the way - WHY in the name of holy should he get to sit on his arse at breakfast time while you run around like a blue-arsed fly doing everything? If he can't even SEE that that's wrong, then TELL him so. ASK him to make sandwiches, make sure the children have all their stuff, clean teeth etc. - INVOLVE him.

As has been said, I don't think it's healthy for children to see Mum doing all the work while Dad just sits around then disappears off - they have no concept of what Dad does at work, so don't realise that he must work hard too (don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely sure he works like a Trojan at work) - all they see is Dad sitting while you do it all.

It's good that he does some stuff at the weekend, but it sounds like it only involves the boys - what about your DD(s)? What does he do there? Anything?

Start to think about your DD(s) (Sorry, I don't know if you have more than one) as well - their future life - do you want for them what you have now? Or would you rather they were in a more equal partnership, where their partner helped out a bit more at home and they were able to work as well?

I think you have hit the nail on the head there, ThumbWitches.

Excellent post from Thumbwitches. I haven't read the whole thread but he does sound rather like a guest in his children's lives. Why doesn't he want to do more with them than simply appear at bedtime to smile and say goodnight, and to happen to be at the same table as them when he orders his morning omelette? He may be providing for them, but he's not really parenting them at all. Visitors to my house do that much.

Whoever wrote Hers involves lots of mundane work, no outside approbation/thanks other than from her husband. His involves a world where all of the mundane tasks are taken care of my someone else and he probably gets loads of outside approbation/thanks through his work. nailed it.

The difference between you two, even though you both work very hard, is that he gets glory for his work and you get actually, none.

You are the backup singer, Madinche. You're essential, and talented, and wonderful. Yet you get few of the rewards.

I know it seems utterly impossible given all the competing demands on your time, but it is essential to start thinking about what your life will look like for the next 20 years.

You know what?

Stressful schmessful

DH has a stressful job when ours were younger. He still managed to take an active part in his children's upbringing, cook and not bugger off on his own every weekend

You're doing your children, particularly your daughter no favours that it's ok for daddy to go out to work and have no responsibility for home and family whilst mummy has to stay at home cooking etc. Perhaps if your DH retires at 50 you can start a new career whilst he runs the house. I would not like your lifestyle. We both work ft, take joint responsibility for the DT's and running the home - it's a joint partnership with respect on both sides

ThumbWitches - your post (and others) have definitely got me thinking. It's quite hard to know what to say to be honest.

Regarding the girls though (the younger two), DH adores them -and they him. DD1 ended up sleeping with me last night and was crying because he's not back until Fri. She was texting him yesterday on my phone, saying she missed him. Every time he walks through the door the girls launch themselves at him and he has to walk around with one in each arm for about 30 mins while they literally strangle him! He will do whatever they want him to do on weekends. He takes them to ballet or whatever birthday party it is, etc.

When he plays rugby, he doesn't hang out with them afterwards.

Sorry it's a lot to think about. I will get a coffee!

Also, thinking about it, I don't actually feel like a flaky role-model for my girls (or boys) because I have genuinely done my best for them all every day. Hopefully one day they will recognise this.

Round here people have live-in housekeepers, nannies, drivers and even take tutors away for the summer with them. It's all seen as quite normal. I haven't done any of this because we don't need to. My role model is my own mum who also did her best in very different circumstances - 4 kids and no money on a farm in the middle of nowhere in Spain.

Bring a SAHM has not made me feel "weak". I am a stronger person today than before we had the kids - by far! The "work" of it is not the actual tasks like cooking or whatever, it's more that you're holding it all together for everyone else. When you have 4 kids and a DH like mine, this can be quite exhausting to be honest.

So this is why the decision is difficult - if I go back to work in the circumstances I'm in, I'm only really doing it for myself. I can't help feeling a bit selfish about doing that.

OP you will get some very strong posts here (its MN!)

Take with a pinch of salt, and get to the heart of the matter for you, and your family

and yes, how can you overlaps when your roles are so very starkly different

and his role will be hard and stressful, and if he isn't showing it at home he is clearly a positive and resilient man!

FWIW, it sounds like your DC have a very happy home life, and maybe you need to share things up a little bit, just a little bit

It s perfectly fine to go to work for you.
Because you will be there yourself when kids grown up and dont need you for the nitty gritty .
Think ahead.
Having a life for yourself is important long term

Your role may not make you feel weak Madinche, but in our society it is weak. I don't mean that to be nasty, I'm in the same position myself and I know how much I've done for my daughters. But the reality is I don't want for my daughters what I have now. After more than 15 years of bliss I suddenly find myself I a relationship I think I no longer want. And my position is pitiful. I have virtually no power. Not because my husband is a nasty person, but because the way our society works mean my choices are to either live without my children and try and rebuild a career in my mid-40s or to bring them up as a single mother and then live, basically, in poverty after you they leave full-time education, or to continue in the role I have where I am basically the hotel keeper to the rest of the family. It's a valuable role, but it isn't a fair one or one I want for the rest of my life.

I agree with cestlavie (and, fwiw, I don't believe you are a "bad" or "flaky" role model to any of your children either, but I do think your partnership model isn't necessarily a good one for them to carry forward) - you are a person as well as a wife and a mother, and it's absolutely fine for you to want to go to work for yourself.

The only thing wrong would be if you chose to deny yourself that because you feel for some reason that you don't deserve it - if it currently doesn't work for YOU as well as the rest of the family, fine - but if you can find a way to make it work, then do it, regardless of what your DH says. You do have as much right as he does to make that decision!

oooh, working for yourself is a perfectly valid reason - that's why I work for the most part. I also think over time, as your children move from smaller to bigger, it'll be very nice for them to see you as an educated professional making a difference with her job, rather than a mum that is always around the house. It's not fair and it's only my perspective but I didn't appreciate my SAHM when I was a teenager as it looked to me as though she was essentially managing the domestic staff and shopping...

Sure - well things are shaping up a bit in my mind anyway.

Why didn't I discover this MN before?

I'm not offended at all by anyone's perspectives, by the way - very grateful.

I will try and work on DH if I can - one step at a time! It will do him good. I do realise that he has some views that could be perceived as slightly...ahem.., chauvanist. Not in the sense that he doesn't respect women, because he certainly does, but more in the sense of how he sees his role in relation to them (if that makes sense)?

He has had a certain upbringing, so I understand where he's coming from - most of the time.

We still have a really good laugh together. He has a way of making me feel amazing and life is never boring with him, that's for sure.

I do pick him up on the way he sometimes gives the boys a slightly harder time about things than the girls (in my view). He does take it on board, I think.

I can try my best. Thanks again!

Boom - apologies I had missed your post. I'm sorry to hear about your position. Surely your DH would need to pay some maintenance though if you leave him?

Madinch, you sound like a lovely person.

I think you could make some small changes which would make you feel much happier about things. Ask your DH to get his own breakfast sorted out. Tell him that you have too much to do in the mornings and, if necessary, teach him how to make his own omelettes. You are not DH's waitress! My DH works very long hours in a demanding job but it wouldn't occur to him to expect breakfast to be served to him by me.

You are only a few years away from a time when your DCs can get themselves to school and you need to start thinking about what you want to do at that time. I think it's an excellent idea to go back to work for a few hours here and there so that you can do more once your children are older. If it makes you feel more fulfilled working part time will be good for your family to see this.

On your current arrangement – I think it’s fair enough that you do pretty much everything at home but, somehow, there’s a difference between that and being treated like a servant. So, for instance, I do almost all of the cooking in our household as part of our division of chores, but my DH (unless he is occupied with something else) will come and chat to me in the kitchen and do a bit of help (I might say “could you chop that, please?” or “could you keep an eye on that pot simmering?”), he won’t just sit there and wait for me to put dinner in front of him. Similarly, washing up is one of his chores and, while sometimes I will have something else that I need to do, mostly I will hang around in the kitchen and chat to him/put things away.

The thing that struck me about your OP is that, actually, I don’t think many of us would behave that way if we were a guest in someone’s house. If my host offered to make me breakfast, I’d let them do that but I wouldn’t put in an “order” for exactly what I wanted. I wouldn’t sit at the table waiting for it to appear while my host dealt with four kids and cooking my breakfast, I’d go and see if there was anything I could do to help. If my host wandered off to deal with her kids’ school run, I’d clear the table at the very least and probably stack the dishwasher. I think that’s fairly normal.

I guess what I’m saying is that your division of labour sounds very absolute – it’s not just that you generally do all domestic stuff, it’s that he basically doesn’t lift a finger. To me, that would feel quite disrespectful and not something I would want to model for children. I don’t think it’s that healthy for anyone’s life to revolve entirely around facilitating other people’s lives – which is what it sounds like yours is. It’s ok to be a bit selfish. Your DH doesn’t just work hard because he wants to provide for you all, he does it because he loves it and I bet he would work exactly as hard if he didn’t have a family. If he’s allowed to do that, so are you.

I always notice on here how many men seem to have jobs that can’t be the tiniest bit flexible and how there seem to be no women with these jobs… Some of it is that women just quit these jobs when they have kids but I also think a lot of is that men don’t even try to seek flexibility because they know that they can convince their wives to facilitate their careers. My workplace is very willing to consider flexibilities but there are lots of men who don’t ask for them and just get their wives to pick up the slack. I suspect, given how senior it sounds like your DH is, that if he said “my DW is working two days a week, so I can’t do short-notice travel those two days but I can the rest of the week” that his workplace would find a way to cope with that but you’ll never know because it doesn’t sound like he’d ever ask.

I really agree with the couple of PPs who have mentioned societal norms - that the role of SAHP is not valued enough and that there is no pressure (yet) on men to scale back their work to take on more parenting duties. If we could change these things life as the SAHP would be so much better. Shared parental leave is a start, but I'm sure it will take a long time.

Madeinch, just a comment about my experience. I have worked for myself from home, very flexible hours, since the children went to school. It was going nowhere so last year I started working 3 days a week for a friend in his business locally. The work was not as interesting as I hoped, and actually I ended up really resenting that I had to put his business before my family commitments sometimes, when it wasn't really that important to me. And we didn't need the money. So I think when I start scaling up the amount of work as the children get older it will have to be something that I really care about, that really absorbs me. I have no idea what this is at the moment or how to work out what that will be! I think maybe getting much more involved in a hobby you love, or volunteering for something you care about would be a start to working this out, and then your work can evolve organically, and you can start to change your domestic set up slowly, rather than one big wham bam I'm going back to work, everything has to change now.

Also, I'm starting to work on getting the rest of the family to do stuff. I've just done a chores schedule which will be implemented over the summer holidays (dh is on it too).

My dh is quite similar to how yours sounds. A very decent person, but was brought up in a very traditional environment and he definitely has unconscious biases with regard to a few things, including gender roles.

Similar family setup.

YANBU

Yes, your husband is respectful and kind. But all the sacrifices are yours. He would still be a workaholic and a career man and mad keen on sport, but he gets to have a stable happy family as well only thanks to what you have given up to facilitate it.

You may never earn enough as him but as a role model for your daughters you pursuing ambition and expecting regard from those who love you to assist you is vital for them to see.

I understand it's hard now as realistically its blooming unlikely your DH would step up domestically to assist you to earn a pittance, but your kids independence is coming fast, if you wanted to retrain or continue education, even part time so that in a few years when they need you a bit less you have that platform to relaunch your career, I don't think you would regret it. And they would understand mums life is worth being invested in.

I sometimes think I would Iove to have a wife. Or be the husband in our setup.

Im a SAHM. DH works very hard and runs two companies.

It would be 'easier' for us to take our relaxation time separately, me in the day, him in the evening. However, that would mean we had little time to relax together or that he sits on his arse watching me clean (NOT appealing!). So when we're both in the house we share housework until we can both sit down.

Our DCs have had problems - don't want to go into it as could be identifying - but suffice to say there was a lot of round the clock work when they were little. It forced him to see that no matter how hard work was he needed to also pitch in at home. I met a mother of twins in NICU who said that the sheer work of multiple ill children beats any inequality out of a relationship - either you find a way to both work at it or you split. Very true I think. Ask yourself how he would behave if you and one/more of the children were ill. Would he instantly pitch in with childcare and what needs to be done? If not, does that scare you, that you are an illness away from family breakdown?

oh and DH had a very absorbing hobby pre-kids (think a whole day every weekend). He gave it up when we had kids, much as I have up most of my free time. Now we are past the baby stage we are looking into both getting back into our hobbies. If your DH has sustained multiples hobbies while you've sacrificed all your free time for years that sounds really crap to me. I have to wonder why? Surely you could see when they were tiny that him having a day to himself at weekends was totally unfair? I know it's no help now to regret the past, but might be worth a think about why you don't value your free time as much as his.

Thankyou Tootsie -I was just thinking I can't be the only one with this kind of DH can I? Sounds like you have a plan. I agree, in your position the job should be something you love to make it worthwhile. At least you've been in and out of work though since having kids.

Notinagteatplace -your DH sounds lovely. This is the position I am aiming for initially!
I realise I probably sound crazy to most people - you're probably thinking, "Just give him a job and stick a rota up godamit!" I feel I just need do the gradual approach though. Strange how I could pretty much ask him to do anything for me in other spheres and he would do it, but I need to be a bit careful here.

Also he runs his own businesses which you would think offered more flexibility, but actually means that you never really leave it behind.