To blame Islam even for this??

[durezz]

I have just heard about a maniac axeman who has injured more than 20 people going on a rampage on a train. It's horrific and doesn't bear thinking about.
But is it fair that without any details people automatically assume it has something to do with the religion of Islam?

Of all the atrocities happening these days I feel so sad that after every such incident 1.8 billion Muslims are somehow held responsible. Fair?

Just after a general consensus to pick your brains and see is that really how people think?

Puzzled - because as you said, the west hasn't declared war on Islam so any war 'Islam' declares on it is unjustified

I know that, Hummy - truly I do. Trouble is, rightly or wrongly some factions have declared war on the west, which is precisely why we're all here, trying to work out what the solution is while surrounded by all the usual howls of racism, bigotry and all the rest

U.K is incredibly tolerant of Muslims, if it weren't we wouldn't even have one mosque let alone the many that we fortunately do. Hijab would be banned and anyone heard muttering the word Allah would be detained. Even then, if that was the case, it STILL wouldn't be justified in Islam to kill. You pack your bags and leave, go to an Islamic country

I completely agree with everything you've said here, but in all honesty it's very hard not to muse on what would have happened if anyone but a muslim had suggested things like "you pack your bags and leave". Let's be quite honest: I think we all know that the sky would have metaphorically fallen in, with MNHQ deluged with demands that such "hate" should be instantly deleted ...

If I was living under proper sharia where it is permissible to chop someone's hand off for stealing, I would either leave if I was uncomfortable living under this law or stay knowing that I personally wouldn't actually chop off anyone's hand or kill someone, because it doesn't work like that.

My guess is that the gay people there aren't so blaise about the anti homosexual laws.

Hummy You are trying to defend your interpretation of Islam but others come up with a different interpretation & we can see why, because Islamic texts are very violent.

'Moderate' Muslims insist & defend that the koran is the perfect literal word of allah & will never be changed, in agreement with ISIL who claim the koran is the perfect literal word of allah & will never be changed.

'Moderate' Muslims say its ok to kill disbelievers as long as its in battle. They dont say its ok to kill in self defence as a last resort, they say its ok to kill DISBELIEVERS & that is exactly what ISIL are doing. War or not its not ok to kill someone because they dont believe in your god.

'Moderate' Muslims say its ok to chop off someones hand as long as it is within the law. That is exactly what ISIL are doing. But its NEVER ok to chop off someones hand, no matter what crime they have committed.

So its ok to marry and rape a nine year old because that is what the custom is? Isn't this what ISIL are doing now, copying Mohammad?

What more can we do? Reform Islam instead of defending it!

Scientific miracles in the Quran? There is a chocolate teapot in it to, I think some spaghetti monsters and maybe a Pokemon or two!

If Mumsnet was in Saudi Arabia, we would all be arrested and flogged to death. Lets just thank god tongue-in-cheek we dont live in an Islamic country.

f I was living under proper sharia where it is permissible to chop someone's hand off for stealing, I would either leave if I was uncomfortable living under this law or stay knowing that I personally wouldn't actually chop off anyone's hand or kill someone, because it doesn't work like that. There's a legal system and appointed people to do that.......I wouldn't object to such people having their hand chopped off knowing they can't harm another being. If that makes me immoral, meh, so be it.

Hours later and this has still disturbed the living hell out of me. In part because you read someone's posts and they are clearly a thinking, intelligent and rational person - and then this in the middle of the calm and rational explanation.

The last burglary in my family was a 17 year old drug addict. I could very cheerfully have given him an earful he would never have forgotten, but you think the utter terror, suffering and horrific brutality of an intentional, forced mutilation and a lifetime of pain and disability is a 'meh' to you for that boy? And a 'meh' because it will be done by some appointed legal person, not you? Which implies you take no responsibility for it.

One of my siblings is gay. They and they partner both have careers that have helped hundreds of people and their community, raising small children who are very happy, healthy kids. Are you 'meh' about them being dragged sobbing up to the top of a building by these legally appointed people and pushed off, smashed to pieces on the ground? Or hanged? Yes I've seen footage. I wish I hadn't, but I won't look away and pretend I don't know how utterly evil this is. What about their children? What about the rest of their family? Where are the morals and ethics of that? I'm the utter opposite of 'meh' about that. I couldn't be less 'meh'.

You have politely called out several people for 'hating' in this thread when they have spoken rudely or crudely about Islamic beliefs and you clearly found it unacceptable. But the hating involved in being rather disrespectfully questioning in an online conversation compared to the hating involved in deliberate mutilation for theft or violent, intentionally terrifying death for being gay? Do you really not see the massive cognitive dissonance in that?

Rumbling I find hummy's posts helpful because they illustrate exactly what a rational person is up against.

I agree with Shins. We need to keep respectful lines of communication open at all times and just keep repeating the same message. That's how attitude change works. It can't be forced.

The reason being that it just adds more fuel to the fire for ppl to blame the religion. If a Christian was to do something similar I wouldn't blame the religion for their misdeed but them as an individual.

it depends on the action and the motivation though, doesn't it?

I think (could be wrong) the Dalmer (cannabilistic serial killer) was a christian, but nobody in their right mind would blame the religion for that because we all know the religion doesn't say anything about eating people.

But we do blame the religion when a christian kills an abortion doctor. Why? Because usually the perpetrator says it is his religion, and can often tell you the relevant parts of the bible to back up his actions.

I honestly don't think that there'd be any further issue if only people could a) criticise, debate and interrogate Islam, just as they do all other ideas and b) stop it being institutionalised. In other words, it can be a private belief but not a public one. I wonder if we are slowly moving toward this anyway?

I agree fourmummy that what is needed is all the above, however we aren't moving this way at all.

MN is a perfect illustration of this. The muslim posters don't engage - they disappear citing 'hate speech' and 'islamophobia'.

It's the same elsewhere. So many muslim chat sites ban ex-muslims or atheists wanting to debate them. See Reddit for perfect examples of this - busy muslim sub-Reddit with principally western born muslims.

Facebook accounts critical of Islam are subjected to mass reporting and pulled or censured.

Ali Rizvi's twitter account has many examples of other ex-muslims who have been publicly supportive of muslims, having their websites & twitter accounts deleted.

Hummy's posts are shocking - why haven't any muslims posters come on to rebut and criticise her ? Are we to assume they all agree ?

If muslims in the West won't engage, what hope is there ?

What is it you actually want the majority of Muslims to do then Mistress Mia (other than be like you of course). You write in such a horrible sneering way about something you once apparently believed in. I might have some respect for your beliefs if you weren't so downright rude and self righteous about other peoples beliefs.

Maybe the average Muslim on here doesn't engage with you because all you do is copy and paste reams of stuff and quite honestly no-one has the time or energy to go through it all and post back as much. Therefore you look like the 'winner' and lots of other non Muslims come on and applaud you for being so clever. I am not sure you are so outspoken in real life though.

Also, what exactly can they say? All these crazy things happening in the world right now and really nothing to do with them personally so what do you want them to do exactly? Leave Islam? Why should they when they aren't following the likes of IS and its random beliefs?

hot i find it strange you interpret mistress mias posts in that way. I have never found them sneering at all.

Mistress i have to agree and I find the defensive tone of some posters baffling.

I am a very lapsed loose catholic, I only went to church a little as a child, and know very little about the bible. But when I see films and read about priests abusing dc in Oz, and the Magdalen laundries I feel shame.

Is it anything to do with me? No! Its hardly anything to do with catholism in that the bible hasn't been interpreted in this way to commit such crimes. Abuse is rife everywhere and its more to do with abusing the position of power a al Saville R Harris, Cyril Smith but having been raised a so called Catholic I feel SHAME.

I cant defend it, I couldn't be defensive about, I wouldn't see it as people picking on me would they talk about it on here, but the issue at hand.

. I am not sure you are so outspoken in real life though

I believe Mistress Mia has said in the past she couldn't express these views in RL because she would be in fear for her life.

Can we openly and safely critise this religion in the liberal west or not?

Leave Islam? Why should they when they aren't following the likes of IS and its random beliefs?

I have read many are giving up on it. I saw interesting documentary with Ross Kemp on the front line in Syria and Iraq. He asked a Kurdish fighter what he thought of Isis and Islam he said something like " ah, islam, I am sick of islam"

the problem is, due to many factors and pressures its not so easy for some muslims to renounce their faith is it.

I value Mistressmia's posts because they echo the views of the Muslim-raised women I know who have rejected its patriarchal suffocating culture, often at great personal cost (an older member of my extended family didn't see her parents for thirty years after she "married out" - she actually climbed out her bedroom window in the night so scared was she of the reprisals. Hers is just one of the many stories I've heard). I don't find her sneering. I think some posters find her uncomfortable to listen to because she speaks from personal experience and her conclusions don't tally with the patronising platitudes on the left that seek to portray Muslims as some great undifferentiated mass with no agency of their own. Why won't outlets like the Guardian give airtime to women like her? And why don't western feminists speak up for their sisters instead of, to use a recent example, a left-wing liberal friend of mine ranting on social media about a school which was apparently "Islamophobic" for preventing an eight year old girl from wearing a hijab and full length clothing? She was defending the father's right to sexualise and restrict his small daughter in the name of some 7th century book over the daughter's right to enjoy all the freedom of a young girl in a modern European country - just bonkers.

Also, what exactly can they say? All these crazy things happening in the world right now and really nothing to do with them personally so what do you want them to do exactly? Leave Islam? Why should they when they aren't following the likes of IS and its random beliefs?

From posts above, hummy seems to support chopping off of hands for thieves, and more generally, perhaps, sharia law in countries where it is the law of the land.

So, for a start, maybe not supporting those things.

So many muslim chat sites ban ex-muslims or atheists wanting to debate them

What - actually ban them, as opposed to argue the points raised? I confess I wasn't aware of that

And FWIW I'm another who's certatinly never found your posts to be sneering ... uncomfortable, perhaps, for those who don't agree, but certainly not actively and deliberately unpleasant

And if folk don't choose to read longer posts which happen not to suit? Well, that's entirely their choice isn't it?

Right, so there was nothing remotely condescending about her description of the Prophet Mohammed and so on?! I think she is deliberately inflammatory actually and she knows that this is a great place to say her bit as Muslims are in the minority on here. Of course she will get great praise from people who already thinks its a load of old tosh.

hotdiggedy I don't see any interest on the part of people like MistressMia or softcuddly to exchange views with anyone who does not hate Islam. I am not a Muslim but I find these people's comments about Mohammed sickening, just like I would be equally appalled at any similar references to Jesus, Abraham or the Budha.

Sickening and you're appalled? Are you as sickened when people are killed for making "comments about Mohammed" like Theo van Gogh or the Charlie Hebdo cartoonists? Or when people post on here that they're ok if kids get their hands chopped off in other countries or that they "don't agree with homosexuality" or that unbelievers will go to hell?

Do you notice a difference between the treatment of those who disrespect Islam and those who disrespect any other religion? I've read the life of the Buddha; I am not impressed at the way he left his wife and family to follow his path - Jesus's exhortation to his followers to do the same can sound like classic male selfish desire to shake off boring responsibility. Don't you think I'm much freer to air the latter views in a public forum than to draw a picture of Mohammed? I live in a newly post-religious country and appreciate how critical I can be of religion and religious authority. My generation has the freedom and education and confidence our parents didn't have and we do not take it for granted. I think people from countries with a longer history of secularism frankly have not a bloody clue what they're dealing with.

There you go, someone comes on to give her views which happen to be not the same as Mistress Mia and suddenly she is shot down and poo pooed. And that, is why you dont get Muslims/people with differing views coming on to these threads very often. Because the majority dont want to listen.

Atenco, same here, I cant imagine making fun of someone elses beliefs.

Atenco, same here, I cant imagine making fun of someone elses beliefs

That's good to know. Could you enlighten me though then why you revere a book & deity that actively despises (doesn't just make fun of) those with other beliefs ?

In order that Allah may distinguish the wicked (disbelievers, polytheists and doers of evil deeds) from the good (believers of Islamic Monotheism and doers of righteous deeds), and put the wicked (disbelievers, polytheists and doers of evil deeds) one on another, heap them together and cast them into Hell. Those! it is they who are the losers
quran.com/search?q=polytheists

You see this is the sort of discussion that needs to be had.

I don't for one moment think that you or the majority of muslims are out to harm non-muslims, but can you see from the above why some muslims do develop hatred of anyone who doesn't follow Islam ?

What about the Hadiths re punishment of homosexuals ? How do you reconcile those against your view of Muhammed's essential goodness.

In what way is that piece of text mocking?

And no, I don't see how it would encourage Muslims to hate none Muslims. It might get my back up if I wasn't Muslim though.

Seems to me that you just like posting stuff that you know will wind people up and start arguments. I'm not interested!

Seems to me that you just like posting stuff that you know will wind people up and start arguments. I'm not interested

That is the thing, if people were genuinely interested, Muslims would be perfectly happy to discuss aspects of their religion with them. And MistressMia, you may or may not have been brought up a Muslim, but if you were, your education was sorely lacking. I know more about Islam than you and I am not even a Muslim.

In what way is that piece of text mocking?

Which bit of calling people losers & torturing them for not believing in Islam is not mocking and hateful to you ?

The Quran talks about what Hell is and happens wherein, in plenty of verses liberally throughout it's Chapters.

To me your attitude sums up completely the problem with Islam.

It's your ilk, the supposedly moderate majority, who are the biggest problem.

You may not physically be part of the mob actively engaged in violence and discrimination against non-believers, but you sure as hell are condoning it.

What if a text came out and spoke like that of muslims ? Would that be OK ? No of course it wouldn't.... We already know that from the murder and threats of anybody who has been mildly critical and offensive against Islam / muslims.

Seems to me that you just like posting stuff that you know will wind people up and start arguments. I'm not interested!

No, it seems to me you use this as an excuse to not engage in dialogue and discussion as you really cannot come up with counter arguments and refutations. Actually you just dig a deeper hole with each response.