To blame Islam even for this??

[durezz]

I have just heard about a maniac axeman who has injured more than 20 people going on a rampage on a train. It's horrific and doesn't bear thinking about.
But is it fair that without any details people automatically assume it has something to do with the religion of Islam?

Of all the atrocities happening these days I feel so sad that after every such incident 1.8 billion Muslims are somehow held responsible. Fair?

Just after a general consensus to pick your brains and see is that really how people think?

MistressMia There is some really great writing out there. The more I read, the more respect I garner for the people who push boundaries and go against the grain because of the sheer difficulty of it. I think it was you who earlier on mentioned supporting and widely disseminating ideas from people who are at the very least interrogating Islam. I fully concur.

I've recently read several works suggesting that Islamic reformation is key. - I meant to add reformation in terms of a splitting of Muslim identity from Islamic identity (for example, the atheist Muslim). It may seem anathema to many but it has to happen and it can happen (but maybe not in our lifetime).

HummyMummy72 I don't understand. In one post you say you have to obey the law of the land, in another you say if it goes against Islam you shouldn't and leave. That is a contradiction which concludes, only obey the law of the land IF it is the same as Islamic law. So why do you live in a western country?

So are you saying its ok to chop someones hand off for stealing. Or are your going to abdicate your opinion to saying... well depends on which country its in.

MORAL PEOPLE THINK ITS NEVER OK TO CHOP OFF SOMEONES HAND, ITS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION .

Its disgusting to think men have to lower their gaze when approaching women. Islam is just sick.

Daesh are following a literal interpretation of Islam, why are you sticking your head in the sand? What part of their religion isn't 7th century Islamic as explained by the texts?

Am I not right in thinking Mohammad raped a nine year old girl. FYI I know this is disgusting but having extensively googled his bio that is what the history says he did. Again that is what ISIS are copying.

Who is it that decides Islam is at war? Seems to most sane people any cleric can declare war and therefore its ok to kill. eg write a book: war, kill. Draw a cartoon: war, kill. Be gay: war, kill. Dance, listen to music: war, kill. Wear a skirt: war, kill. Its ok, its Man on man bit sexist, Islam says its good.

I will briefly say though, why are only certain verses to be taken into context ?

Why not the permission to take 4 wives ? What possible necessity is there for that now ? The context surely was a shortage of men due to constant battles rather than just to fulfil mens lust.

Or awarding women only half the inheritance - The context of little women being purely homemakers supported by the men has long ago been replaced by the necessity for them to have to bear or share financial responsibility ?

Or slaughtering animals in the original manner proscribed now that we have more humane and hygienic methods ?

Or not eating the flesh of pigs ? The dangers of food poisoning are long passed.

It seems that 'taking things in context' is selectively applied to those verses and sayings that would put Islam in a very bad light otherwise.

Hummy

In essence your belief is that Muhammed was this rather benign fellow who was simply fulfilling Allah's commandment to call people to Islam.

People began being mean to him so Allah told him it was OK to murder, torture, rape and enslave his opponents. And this was all ok because the other side started it first.

And although Muhammed behaved like this and he is the perfect example for all maknind and the person Muslims are enjoined to emulate, they shouldn't do what he did ?

Another great article from Ali A.Rizvi: www.huffingtonpost.com/ali-a-rizvi/why-i-decided-to-call-myself-an-atheist-muslim_b_3261226.html

"Let us be clear why Christianity and Judaism, in the twenty-first century, generally lend themselves to a pick-and-mix treatment: it’s because they have more or less been wrenched through a two-part grinder called ‘Secularism and the Enlightenment’. That metaphor might be a violent one but what has emerged from the other end of the machine is far more peaceful and humane than what was fed in: religions which can be picked apart, consumed and discarded as an individual human sees fit.

And that is what is required of Islam, urgently. How will we know when this job is done? Well, when we meet beer-loving, pork-eating, atheist Muslims who pray exactly no times a day and in no particular direction, and we don’t consider that a contradiction, that will be a good start. I must admit, I am still not a fan of most kinds of pork. But thank God for bacon".

For anyone following this thread, who is not familiar with Muhammed's biography, a quick potted summary:

• born and raised in the Arabian city of Mecca. This was largely pagan at the time

• In his 20's started retreating to a cave and claimed to hear voices yes like Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper

• Lack of MH resources meant that rather than getting treatment, he became a Prophet as Lo these voices were definitely from God

• Started preaching to the pagan Meccans telling them to abandon their false Gods and just have the One. They told him to sling his hook as actually all that idolatry was rather profitable - the original pilgrimages to Mecca were worshippers coming to pray to all the statues stuffed in the Kaaba. The Meccans understood the importance to the bottom line of having a plentiful and diversified product portfolio to attract the widest number of pilgrims

• Muhammed slunk off to a nearby city, Medina. Managed to con everyone there that he really wasn't just an olden day David Icke

• Spurred on by his persuasive success in Medina and somewhat penniless by now, he started attacking his old Meccan neighbours due to (1) spite (2) old fashioned banditry - they also happened to be rich traders.

• Numerous very bloody battles with other tribes. Some defensive but the majority offensive and unprovoked. Culminating in plenty of war booty (capital & human: slaves including sexual ones) and the forced spread of Islam across the Arabian peninsula.

-Territory expanded further out to other continents by his followers in the ensuing centuries. Again executed though very bloody and brutal means.

-IS, Al-Qaeda, Boko, Al-Shabab etc etc continuing in his original mission of spreading Islam to all four corners the globe.

The muslim apologist version: all of the above, but the other side were at fault for rejecting his message and protecting their livelihood, goods and beliefs. Hence all the battles Muhammed fought were 'defensive'.

All depraved behaviour acceptable as 'that was what happened in those times'.

Muhammed was perfect and his conduct and message is valid for all time. All muslims should be like him.

IS despite behaving like Muhammed are 'not real muslims'

MM I think that's why a lot of young men convert in prison. I know most Muslims live peaceful lives and wouldn't dream of emulating the violence but there's a perception that Muhammed was "hard" in a way that Jesus wasn't.

Ipitythepontypines, if you're referring to countries in the Balkan regions, they have tiny populations and until recently were very secular. All the Bosnian Muslims I knew from my 90s travels took their religion lightly if at all. That region has however been "got at" by Wahabi money and has become more religious in recent years. Re your wider point- of course Islam has existed in Europe but not as a significant cultural force for centuries. Restrictive clothing for women, demands for segregation of the sexes, demands that we compromise our free speech etc - all new and quite unwelcome.

There's so much wonderful, erudite writing out there:

"There will always be people who agree or disagree with whether or not a particular interpretation of a text (holy or otherwise) is correct. And that is the point. The goal of an enlightened people is to be able to discuss those interpretations for the benefit of society, to discuss what is harmful and what is not. There are many people in the United States, for example, who fervently believe that all the animal life we see today once packed into a wooden boat to escape a global flood from an angry God. We have come to the conclusion that no one should be prevented from believing this, but those believers must live with their ideas being scrutinized (and for the most part, they do), and more importantly, they must accept that these ideas will not be institutionalized. It would not be helpful for the left to denounce the criticism of literal readings of the Bible as racist or contriving a term like Christophobic.

So, what is there to do?

Firstly: have ideas, discuss, criticize. I reserve the right to criticize any belief system that seems to me to violate rational thought, human rights or free speech. Much less, I expect my criticisms not to be criminalized. I may be wrong, I may be partly right, but I expect to be able to discuss without fear of reprisal, either from the left or from Islamic religious fundamentalists."

Shins - "I think that's why a lot of young men convert in prison. I know most Muslims live peaceful lives and wouldn't dream of emulating the violence but there's a perception that Muhammed was "hard" in a way that Jesus wasn't"

Lol sorry but that's a load of rubbish. Your saying people in prison aspire to be 'hard', what a generalization. Have you spoken to men who have converted to Islam in prison? Don't think you have.
Mohammad pbuh actually was the opposite of 'hard'. Men in general in that time were 'hard' and definitely had the stiffest upper lip. There are Hadith where the prophet pbuh cried, loved and was affectionate..and in some Hadith this behavior is questioned by companions who viewed it as weakness to be so open with emotion. He wasn't hard at all, and I can assure you this is not the reason there are converts in prison.

Puzzled - because as you said, the west hasn't declared war on Islam so any war 'Islam' declares on it is unjustified. If our army were to go to a Muslim country, let's say a quiet village in Malaysia and suddenly start bombing and murdering the Muslims there because of the religion they follow, and THEN Isis target the army (not civilians) then this is justified in Islam.
U.K is incredibly tolerant of Muslims, if it weren't we wouldn't even have one mosque let alone the many that we fortunately do. Hijab would be banned and anyone heard muttering the word Allah would be detained. Even then, if that was the case, it STILL wouldn't be justified in Islam to kill. You pack your bags and leave, go to an Islamic country where you can practice your religion freely. Now if the uk army followed and attacked, then you kill and that's justified.

Mistress - your posts are way too long I genuinely don't have the time to break down everything..

"But what about the religions they’re targeting? The Abrahamic holy books—respected and revered by billions worldwide—prescribe the killing of disbelievers (Quran 8:12-13, 47:4; Leviticus 24:16); order their adherents to fight and enslave those with differing beliefs, a la ISIS (Quran 9:29-30, Deuteronomy 20:10-18); endorse wife-beating (Quran 4:34) and the stoning to death of non-virginal brides (Deuteronomy 22:20-21); order women to quietly submit to the authority of men (1 Timothy 2:11-12); and mandate the public lashing of fornicators (Quran 24:2) and the killing of homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13)."

Can't speak on behalf of the bible, I've explained that in battle man on man it is permissible to kill disbelievers. I've also touched on the slavery issue.

Wife beating - not allowed at all. There is a Hadith that says you can use a miswak (an Olden style Arabic toothbrush) and tap her with it. Now to us in this day and age that's strange and if my husband did this I would laugh and walk away. But that is as far as you can go, it is not an open door to beat your wife. The 'tapping' isn't even allowed to leave a red mark to give an indication of how light it should be.

"like to quote the verse 2:256, which says there is “no compulsion in religion.” They won’t tell you (and many don’t know themselves) that the very next verse, 2:257, says that those who do choose to disbelieve will be “companions of the Fire; they will abide eternally therein.”

Yes, Muslims believe that disbelievers will go to hell. Not our job to punish.

You’ll also hear them quote verse 5:32, which says, “Whoever kills a soul…it is as if he had slain all mankind. And whoever saves one—it is as if he had saved mankind entirely.” But again, if you read on to the very next verse, 5:33, you’ll see that Allah wants anyone opposing him or his messenger to “be killed or crucified…their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides,” for “causing corruption.”

Actually the next verse is:

"Indeed the penalty of those WHO WAGE WAR against Allah and his messenger....."

Again, don't know how many times I'm going to repeat this lol but it's ONLY in a state of war, these verses were extremely relevant to the time. I've explained the history and what was occurring.

"Muhammed was perfect and his conduct and message is valid for all time. All muslims should be like him.

IS despite behaving like Muhammed are 'not real muslims'"

Isis are NOT behaving like prophet Mohammad pbuh. Did you not see the quote on the Khawarijj that the prophet said himself?? They are the dogs of the hellfire, in the eyes of Mohammad pbuh, Allah and Muslims.
Your biography of Mohammad is delusional and completely false. Any wars that are done in the name of Islam that aren't conducted in a way that Islam permits are nothing to do with the religion. Isis etc are not carrying out islams original mission. If islams mission were to convert all or kill, it would have been done by now.

Peach - "I don't understand. In one post you say you have to obey the law of the land, in another you say if it goes against Islam you shouldn't and leave. That is a contradiction which concludes, only obey the law of the land IF it is the same as Islamic law. So why do you live in a western country?"

I don't know why you are not grasping the simplicity of what I'm saying. I'm saying if the law makes something forbidden in Islam compulsory then you leave. If it's legal to smoke, drink, club etc then you abstain and live your life normally. I live in a western country because I was born and bought up here and I quite happen to like it thanks.

"So are you saying its ok to chop someones hand off for stealing. Or are your going to abdicate your opinion to saying... well depends on which country its in.

MORAL PEOPLE THINK ITS NEVER OK TO CHOP OFF SOMEONES HAND, ITS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION "

Well then yes I'm immoral, I think if somebody steals for no other reason than greed KNOWING the consequence of their actions they are daft and should face them. I've read so many stories how elderly men and women in this country have been battered by burglars and lives have been ruined, I wouldn't object to such people having their hand chopped off knowing they can't harm another being. If that makes me immoral, meh, so be it.

"Its disgusting to think men have to lower their gaze when approaching women. Islam is just sick."

Your hate is shining through beautifully :)
This kind of attitude is exactly what Isis loves, cause division amongst Muslims and non Muslims, no mutual respect etc. this is what's stopping Muslims working alongside some non Muslims to tackle extremism. People don't have to agree in order to get along or work together for a common cause. But their has to be respect both sides, It's a shame you've fallen in to the trap and are blinded by your hate.

"Am I not right in thinking Mohammad raped a nine year old girl. FYI I know this is disgusting but having extensively googled his bio that is what the history says he did. Again that is what ISIS are copying."

When prophet Muhammad (pbuh) delivered the message of Islam the pagans hated him and what he was claiming to be the truth. He was ridiculed and called every name under the sun. A liar, a magician, money/power hungry, poet..the list goes on and on. The one thing he was never called was a pedophile. The fact he married a 6 year old and consummated that marriage when she was 9 was never used against him purely because it was the custom back in those days. In fact it was considered odd if a girl passed the age of 12 and was not married! This custom wasn't only common in the Arab culture. Marriages like these were common in Asia, Eastern Europe, Portugal and Spain.
Aa'isha (the girl who he married) was the only Virgin that the prophet (pbuh) married and he did not have a reputation from the pagans of being sexually immoral or driven in any way.
If in this time the marriage was considered wrong the pagans would have loved to have used that against him, not to mention it would have been detrimental to the spreading of Islam and its reputation.
Aa'isha witnessed the revelation and rulings of Islam pertaining to the most particular and private matters of women amongst many others. She reported about 2100 narrations from the prophet covering rulings, worships etc and her narrations are still highly regarded and adhered to. She was the greatest woman scholar in Islam and she had many students of knowledge from the companions of the prophet.

Of course in this day and age, marrying a 6 year old is not part of the culture or custom, it is illegal and immoral. As far as I know, no country considers this to be the norm and if it is done, it is frowned upon by the rest of the world. It is not a part of Islam to marry a 6 year old, it is not mentioned in the Qu'ran or any narrations of the prophet. It is simply something that was done back in that day and was considered the norm.

To the minority who think it is still ok to marry a minor: Islam encourages you to follow your culture so long as it doesn't contradict or interfere with your religion. For example when picking your child's name, the most important thing is that the meaning is good. However it is also highly recommended that the name will fit into the child's culture and will not be questioned or cause confusion amongst family members etc. so if I was to call my child Helen although the meaning might be great my family and in laws would find it a bit strange so it's better to stick to one that fits the culture. The same can be applied to marriage, it would definitely not be considered ok or normal to marry a 6 year old. It's wrong.

"Who is it that decides Islam is at war? Seems to most sane people any cleric can declare war and therefore its ok to kill. eg write a book: war, kill. Draw a cartoon: war, kill. Be gay: war, kill. Dance, listen to music: war, kill. Wear a skirt: war, kill. Its ok, its Man on man bit sexist, Islam says its good."

No one decides Islam is at war. If your land is invaded and your people are killed, it's a war against whoever did that. Again this has been explained umpteen times.

Enthusiasm - that's a good point and I agree with you. As I've said there is a massive problem within the Muslim communities with individuals either being brainwashed, or told lies about their religion in order to persuade to kill.
I'm not saying we ignore the Muslim aspect of things, that would be daft you're right. But as I said, Scholars, imams, mosques, websites are doing their utmost to speak up against extremism. What more can we do? We are against Isis and want them dead and gone just like anybody else. There are many brothers who also do stalls across the uk in city centers handing out information, speaking to the general public about islams stance on extremism. They literally devote their lives to talking out against Isis etc. City Centre Da'wah on Twitter are one of these.

Our religious scripture will not be changed or updated but we all have brains that are capable of understanding that times have changed and you live your life decently whilst staying close to your religion.
It doesn't help that idiots like anjem choudary are walking around free when he should be locked up and stripped of any access to social media. We are battling against individuals like him as well.

The U.K./US have done themselves and countries no favors whatsoever. They invaded Iraq, civilians were killed and Isis use this massively to their advantage. Many members of the army mistreated, abused, raped and killed civilians. Some (who are in prison serving time for these things) have even spoken out saying the general feeling in the army was that it was perfectly acceptable to hold racist views and Muslims were treated and viewed as animals. There are articles on this, videos on YouTube of ex serviceman speaking out on this etc. it wasn't 10/20 members of the army that did this, it happened a hell of a lot. There's even a video online of army men raping an Iraqi woman. There was the story of them breaking in to a home at night, beating family members up, raping a 14 year old girl infront of her family and then murdering her.
Unfortunately these were not isolated incidents, some were prosecuted, many got away with it. There were also lovely members of the army who were protecting their country and these civilians also, you can't taint them all with the same brush like people love to do with Muslims..but this is something that happened.
Now Isis have used this as an excuse for what their doing and all their propaganda when brainwashing individuals in other countries often revolves around this. "Look what they're doing to our people"
"Look how they view you"
"They are the enemy"

I personally don't know how this can be fixed. I massively oppose bombing Syria, civilians are being killed and it's adding fuel to fire for Isis. The other day 84 civilians including children and babies were killed by a bomb dropped by the US, they said it was a 'mistake'. The world stays pretty much silent, no hashtags on Twitter, no one changing their profile picture to a Syrian flag. Once again, Isis use this to their advantage. They themselves are also to blame for these deaths, they just don't care for them it's fuel to carry out more attacks on the west. I really don't know what the answer is.

This is taking up too much time and I won't be responding to any more messages. It's swings and roundabouts just going back and forth it's pointless!

Everyone is entitled to their belief and view and to have it respected and also challenged.

A big part of my faith is having patience and knowing this world is so temporary and a drop in the ocean of what I believe is to come, Islam is a beautiful religion and I urge any individual who is curious about it to look in to it themselves and not listen to what I have been saying, or what any other poster has been saying. Pick up the Quran with an open mind and judge for yourself. There are many Hadith out there that are unauthentic, hundreds actually so it's always important to check the source and authenticity of any Hadith you come across. Bukhari, Muslim, tirmidhi are trusted ones.
I'm also a bit of a science geek and what made me more attracted to Islam is the scientific miracles in the Quran. Things that scientists have only discovered in recent times with regards to fetal development, the planets/stars etc, fingerprints..

www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html

salafipublications.com/sps/

www.islamagainstextremism.com

I'll leave it at that and will not be responding further.

"For you is your religion and for me is my religion" (Quran 109)

www.spectator.co.uk/2015/03/swedens-feminist-foreign-minister-has-dared-to-tell-the-truth-about-saudi-arabia-what-happens-now-concerns-us-all/

Saudi Arabia has successfully turned criticism of its brutal version of Islam into an attack on all Muslims, regardless of whether they are Wahhabis or not, and Wallström and her colleagues are clearly unnerved by accusations of Islamophobia.

^^good article.

We are not the only country selling arms to the saudis.

hummy

It may be beautiful in parts but in other parts its repressive and brutal,. I guess the question is does the good out weigh the bad and I would say as an outsider, not at all.

we can all be beautiful and lead compassionate lives without religion.

Hummy I have a close relative who taught in a London prison for years and that was his experience. The perception of Christianity was that is a bit "wet" in comparison. And it's not always voluntary either.
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britain-s-jails-facing-growing-problem-of-forced-conversion-to-islam-officers-warn-8892645.html

Your Bible-quoting is Old Testament which as I've pointed out before, most Christians do not use as a model for living, so totally irrelevant.

I'm also a bit of a science geek and what made me more attracted to Islam is the scientific miracles in the Quran. Things that scientists have only discovered in recent times with regards to fetal development, the planets/stars etc, fingerprints

LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Taking just one of those 'scientific miracles' - foetal development - Aristotle & Galen said much, much more on the subject centuries earlier.

Muhammed was just a charlatan who lifted a few sentences from their observations and padded it out with some gibberish musings based on the patently observable.

freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/11/23/islamic-embryology-overblown-balderdash/

No such thing as a scientific miracle.

It's either science or a miracle.
If you believe in that kind if things that is, miracles.

Our religious scripture will not be changed or updated but we all have brains that are capable of understanding that times have changed and you live your life decently whilst staying close to your religion.

that's the problem. We don't all have brains, and least enough to sift through the Quran and pick the good from the bad. That's the problem. The "perfect book" is too easily twisted.

There are no scientific miracles.

Hummy I appreciate the effort you've put into your posts. I honestly don't think that there'd be any further issue if only people could a) criticise, debate and interrogate Islam, just as they do all other ideas and b) stop it being institutionalised. In other words, it can be a private belief but not a public one. I wonder if we are slowly moving toward this anyway? I read an interesting article recently suggesting that the Arab Spring was an indication that many Muslim-majority populations are now ready, or at least, getting ready to move in favour of these transitions.

In a potted version can anyone tell me what is good about islam?

I mean when I think of my patchy Christian education ( two Catholics schools one with nuns) We mostly did morals from the Bible rather than actually study it. All about peace, forgiveness and kindness - and humility.

I cant think of anything in Jesus life that was bad or could be construed as dodgy in anyway?

In fact I have just remembered one thing, treat strangers well in case they are MO?
I remember an friend from Syria saw some girls who seemed arabic dancing through a window in a house in soho, before I knew what was happening she had knocked on the door and pretty much invited herself in, saying they couldn't refuse us and I found myself sitting in strangers house with some bemused girls

If I was living under proper sharia where it is permissible to chop someone's hand off for stealing, I would either leave if I was uncomfortable living under this law or stay knowing that I personally wouldn't actually chop off anyone's hand or kill someone, because it doesn't work like that. There's a legal system and appointed people to do that.......I wouldn't object to such people having their hand chopped off knowing they can't harm another being. If that makes me immoral, meh, so be it.

Bloody hell.

That a clearly articulate, intelligent woman genuinely thinks this is in any way ok ....

I haven't RTFT but I seem to have jumped in at a bizzare moment, chopping people's hands off as punishment regardless of who does it is barbaric