DD is starting school in September, but isn't toilet trained.

[BarkingMad12]

Hi. Not sure what to do. DD isn't toilet trained yet, we haven't rushed it at all and did wait until she showed signs, but she never did so we have slowly started trying more and more but it isn't going great. I'm worried as she's closer and closer to going to school.

Do I tell them? If so, when? Also, is she allowed to go? Even though she isn't trained? Advice would be great

OK disabled children must be properly looked after.

Oh gee, thanks - but just to point out, my bright, funny boy would not be able to access a ms education without care plans and a TA, these things have enhanced children's (all children's) lives.

No it hasn't been established whether the op's dd has additional needs (beyond a delay in independent continence), but a 4 year old child needing to be cleaned up after a toilet accident/pooey nappy whether disabled or not - is still a 4 year old child in need of help, and help with kindness, dignity and respect.

Rosie - where are all these parents? children in starting school in nappies are still in the minority, n of that minority most will have some for of additional needs. No need to throw your hands up in the air for the 'poor' early years teachers and support staff (whose job it is to support the development of young children as well as educate)

Haven't RTFT but yes, she does, surely?! The staff have enough on their plates without having to accompany children to the toilet all day and deal with accidents - plus all the safeguarding concerns that others have mentioned. Even the summer-borns will be 4, even if only-just-turned-4, surely old enough to have learned? My DD was toilet trained at 2.10 months, DS not till 3.3 months, but I can't imagine in another 9 months that he wouldn't have been ready.

and once more......of course all children with all levels of needs/disabilities have the right to enjoy ms education, with good support. I have never,ever, suggested otherwise. How do you know my child does not have additional needs?

Disability is surely a spectrum and I was attempting to differentiate between a child with a range of additional needs and a child who has not been trained.

What do we expect a reasonable skill set is from a Reception child with no extra needs? I would hazard a guess that being able to use the loo is one of them,along with recognize name, sit for short periods of time,able to take turns,able to take some responsibility for their action and many others.

I was just pointing out how daft your disdain for TAs and care plans and the like are. I have no idea whether you have children with additional needs, if you did, why would that make a difference?

Yes lots of children start year R not quite hitting their developmental milestones in a variety of areas - fine motor skills, speech and communication, gross motor skills etc being independent in toileting is just one area. There are lots of reasons why a child might be missing one of these milestones - it could be just a delay, it could be disruptive home life, it could be undiagnosed sn, it could be a lack of parental input, it could be all sorts of reasons, but whatever the reason the child needs some help and support. Children's needs don't fit neatly into 'deserving' (sn, medical reasons) and 'undeserving' (everything else).

All of my children could read basic words entering nursery, should I "expect" the rest of the population to be able to do the same

That is rather more advanced than being toilet trained though. My children were toilet trained by the age of two. School age children are at least two years older so I would expect the vast majority to be toilet trained.

I wanted to quote from <a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.leics.gov.uk/personal_care_guidance_for_early_years-2.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjX3rTB9e3NAhXJD8AKHbqYBhMQFggbMAA&usg=AFQjCNGglCUCeemRWVDH7p4JCeVPzEPTJw&sig2=oTky-96Bri6I2aiBJ04kWg" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">this document, which (on my understanding) is viewed as setting out best practice generally in this area.

"It is not helpful to assume that the child has failed to achieve full continence
because the parent hasn’t bothered to try. There are very few parents/carers
for whom this would be true. In the unlikely event this is the only reason why
the child has not become continent then continence achievement should be
uncomplicated if a positive and structured approach is used in partnership
with the parent/carer."

Some children won't be able to sit still for 5 united,some won't understand others feelings, some won't share, some will need help with toilet training, some won't be able to use a tripod grip, some will need help with clothes, some will need help wiping their bottoms, some will need help with understanding instructions, some will need help with speaking........there are hundreds of areas where some children will be fine, and others will need help. It is a huge developmental hill, some stroll up it others need more help for many different reasons.

I've read half TFT

OP you need to try. And try hard. My daughter is a late summer baby. Yes it took a bit more time but it was worth it.

30 kids in a class. If half of those are in nappies how much teaching do you think will be done with constantly having to change them? Its not fair to the rest of the class, the teachers or the child themselves.

Haven't read the full thread, just last couple of pages, and note that there is lots of talk about additional needs being relevant when the OP hasn't mentioned that at all. On that basis, I think you need to have a bloody good go at toilet training before your little one starts school. It isn't fair to expect staff to deal with it just because you haven't knuckled down (if that is what has happened). Even if it takes the whole six weeks, then that's what you have to do. It has to be your number one priority. As other people have said, you buy a shed load of pants, wipes, kitchen towel, spray etc, make up a reward chart and get stuck in. You owe it to your daughter as well as the school.

My daughter will be 5 and a day or so when she starts in reception. We deferred her reception start for many reasons but toileting was a big one. We firmly felt as parents that if she wasn't reliably continent, she wasn't ready for the myriad other things school will throw at her. We also felt that taking the teacher or TA away from the whole class to deal with one child would be unfair. A year on, she is still not perfect and quite often has dribbly pants and has frequent but minor poo accidents. I therefore remain nervous. However, had we not spent the last 3 years working very hard to try to get her continent, I would feel pretty crap about sending her to school and leaving her to the staff to sort out. It's not fair on her and it's not fair on them, or the class.

SlipperyJack There may be few parents who haven't tried at all. However, there will be some like OP who are waiting for "signs" and not actually trying that hard in the meantime.

btw there was no distain....a rather foolish of the cuff comment perhaps

Op your child goes to school to be taught not for teachers and TAs to parent your child and give them essential skills like using the toilet.

I think the op has erm disappeared

Honestly? Just get on with it. Sounds like you haven't tried particularly hard. You now have a deadline to focus on so just do it.

OP I think you need to speak to the teacher ASAP. It's not fair to expect them to deal with that, with no notice, in September. I'd also crack on with toilet training starting now. You have seven weeks, that should be loads of time. In the event that your child still doesn't have the hang of it before September, they will probably learn very quickly, once they find that all their new friends use the toilet and don't wear nappies.

You need to get on and train your DD quickly, think how difficult school is going to be for her if the other children find out she is still in nappies. I also don't understand why you haven't managed to train her yet. My son was 4 years and 4 days when he started school and he was the youngest in the school.

where did this figure of half the child in nappies come from??

The EYFS (taught until year 1) includes lots of self care skills, and states 'Usually dry and clean during the day.' - so yes the vast majority will be , manag9ing0 their own basic hygiene and personal needs successfully, including dressing and going to the toilet independently', but some will not.

And it has been said many times that the reference to children with additional needs was because posters were incredulous that a child may not have been assessed fo having additional needs by the time they enter school. In 417 posts, with none from the OP the thread had spread to a general discussion around children starting school in nappies.

My son is starting reception this year too, and only turns four at the end of this month. And he too isn't fully toilet trained. He had some gross motor developmental delay (didn't walk until 27 months) although you wouldn't knnow it now. He is usually ok with wee, but regularly craps himself especially at creche. I am at my utter wits end how to sort it out, I'm having sleepless nights.

Ive tried EVERYTHING.

We've done stickers, bribes and lots of praise.

We've done the 'you're a big boy now and you don't wear nappies' thing.

We've got him to pick out his own special pants.

We've done glossing over accidents with a cheery 'oh dear' and carrying on.

We've done making him wash his own pants.

We've done punishment.

And nothing works. He doesn't care less he is still getting changed at creche, the fact all the other kids can do it without help bothers him not one jot.

I'm not confusing him with changing between nappies and pants, Ive been washing out shitty pants for months.

I'm not a lazy entitled mum who thinks its ok for teachers to clean him up, I'm mortified at the thought.

I haven't not been bothered, we've been trying since October.

The only thing I can't do is the taking the summer off and letting him run round the garden thing as I don't have unlimited annual leave entitlement.

Anyone here saying, well he should just be doing it at nearly four, or just crack on and get it sorted, or mine was trained within 48 hours, how about proving it? Come to my house, sort him out, and I will walk to the nearest ATM, get out £500 cash and hand it to you

On one of These threads.

Reading IS NOT rather more advanced than toilet training in my children.

It is more advanced because the vast majority of children who don't have disabilities can be toilet trained before they can read.

isn't that becuase it's generally taught first?

Kieren, what happens if he were to spend a couple of days with no pants on? My DS was getting confused and could do it without bottoms on, but not with any material next to his skin. He also got very upset and withheld poo, in the end id spot the poo dance and get him to the loo and reassured him whilst he went. Then once the fear subsided I told him he couldn't start swimming lessons and gymnastics until he could use the toilet properly. It gave him an incentive, admittedly having an elder sibling going to these activities whilst he couldn't made it a proper carrot. Of course these things don't require him to be toilet trained but he didn't know that, I'm sure he'd have quite happily keep pooing in his pants if he could get away with it. I don't believe all kids just reach a point in development and wake up one day wanting to use the toilet.