Brexit rage

[holeinyourhead]

What's happened in the last 10 days has really affected me. It's all I think about tbh and I feel so enraged at seeing the politicians lie to us so lavishly then bail on us so swiftly, yet I'm completely powerless to do anything. I marched, I wrote to my MP, I've signed petitions. I'm obviously one of the 48% who wanted to remain. I can't find fault with the 52% who voted to leave, it's not their fault. It's a democratic process, I understand that of course. Everyone's entitled to their view and it's not that I'm a sore loser. But the catastrophic fallout isn't what even the most hardline leave voter would have wished for, there's no Brexit plan, and the future looks very bleak. I was at a conference today and a Conservative MP and a Brussels Eurocrats both agreed a recession in the medium term is now inevitable. People around me seem to be getting on with things - I wish I could too - but I've been very tearful and sleepless and worried sick. I run a European business just out of start up phase, employing a handful of people who by chance are not British born and who are now very nervous themselves about the future. The more I read the more hopeless I feel with each passing resignation. AIBU to feel like this? Does anyone else feel the same? Am I going nuts?!! I feel very alone.

There is a correlation between certain attitudes and the vote, regardless of class or political persuasion. Apparently those with a more generally fearful and negative approach to life are much more likely to have voted Leave.

I have a link to the research but it isn't working at the moment!

Adnerb that makes sense to me - the fear factor of closing our doors and drawing the blinds to the rest of the world. I find it amazing Remain was named "project fear" based on facts and expert opinion yet the lies and fearmongering of the lesser 'threat' of immigration was completely allowed to be peddled and is still cited as causal to voters to this day. This is despite the knowledge that we can't not have them and stay in the single market, they claim less in welfare than home grown brits, they are usually working and paying taxes and are underpaid by fat cat bosses to boot and rarely complain - they are actually grateful to be part of our country and to be given opportunities despite low pay...unlike some leavers. I think it comes down to some very sour grapes - immigrants get here, are given a very low paid job and still manage to get on, rise up and carry on until they are on better pay and have a right to a house etc. Those who refuse to do menial work are bumped down the lists and blame the people doing the shite for their lack of a prize.

I am very lucky I have the choice to leave. I think maybe 2 out of 5 people I know are starting to look around the world and choosing the holidays wisely to scope out new areas to settle. It's all in the timing, too late and property is worth nothing but at the moment the job markets are being flooded by Brits so not a great time to job search, so I hear!

Sad that it should come to this Jeffrey

YABU I have been in heart of European commission for 26 years. They a re taking the piss out of the English. They think/thought they could do anything they want and we have no say. Can't force paedos out of our country. Have to accept federalism pushed upon us by John claude junkers the drunkard. They pay no taxes what so ever. If they have their way you will pay 20% on all house purchases as in Belgium (except for them of course). Any salary of 40k above pays 70% tax (not them of course). Any employer pays 2 and half time salary of any employee. So if employee is paid 20k government will charge you 50k for the pleasure. (Not them of course). So think yourself lucky that brexiters have saved you from yourselves. My father fought at Dunkirk to save us from German rule. The least I can do is suck it up a little while. It's time we pulled together and made the best of it. We are not exactly going over the top! (WW1 phrase for bravery and courage that we all need to show.

There's a lot of negativity and fear on here. In the main what happens now is beyond our control. What I do know is that bankers , politicians and big businesses will look after themselves and that our economy will recover. All we can do perhaps save a bit and not overstrech ourselves financially.
It is likely that some good things will come out of leaving the EU as well.
Nothing much will happen for a while anyway so relax and leave the worry to those who are paid to deal with it

Expat777 - have you really been working for or closely involved with the European Commission for 26 years? I'm surprised that you haven't learned that its president is called Jean-Claude Juncker . I've just googled Belgian tax rates and the top rate appears to be 50%, not 70%.

Lalalonglegs sorry but you are absolutely wrong. I know what tax we pay here. You are so wrong use a simulation site maybe you'll get closer to the truth. I assure you 70% is nearer the reality.

Can't force paedos out of our country

Sorry, I don't believe you've been in the heart of the European Commission for years, and use language like that. More like the Daily Express language.

You can say anything on T'Internet you know/

UNDERTHEGREENWOODTREE doesn't really matter what you believe. Doesn't change reality.

Gosh those capitals. Must be true.

Expat no offense but I don't believe you.

Oh and how are they taking the piss of out the English but not the Scots, Welsh or Northern Irish? You know, the nations that make up the United Kingdom? Fascinating. Would have thought you'd have at least that level of awareness, what with your 26 years in the very heart of the European Commission.

That is exactly the kind of person I want to get away from. And the idea that you can't deal with the shit you put on your own doorstep - make someone else do it. I didn't put it there. I don't trust those who are sent to 'deal' with it and I certainly don't think they will do it well or make my life easier for them having had to do it.

I'm stretching a very thin metaphor here.

Expat and Lelli - you both been out on tug boats over the weekend with nets? There's a problem with that, overfishing could threaten the whole supply chain for our fish.

Just as earlier I said we have no more shits to give. There's nothing here to stay for, or very little that won't be changed in the next 10 years. I want to be in a nice well rounded and accepting country, moving forwards, not backwards.

Expat, it is true that Belgium has high rates of tax and social security, but Belgium is just one country and sets its own tax rates, just as we do. There isn't any standard EU rate of income tax or stamp duty. EU officials are not exempt from stamp duty, they pay it just like anyone else. Your assertions are bizarre.

Can't force paedos out of our country

Obviously we can't force paedophiles with British nationality out of our country. However, we certainly can expel non-British paedophiles. The only circumstances when that might not be possible would be if there were a potential breach of his human rights, e.g. if he would be in danger of death or torture on return to his own country - and that is a consequence of our duties under the European Convention on Human Rights, which we drafted and to which we signed up in 1953, decades before we joined the EU. The referendum result has no effect on our duties under the ECHR.

So if Expat777 claims that his/her experience in the European Commission tells him/her otherwise, then either s/he is lying or hasn't been paying attention.

I have still yet to find a leaver who can convince me they voted with actual knowledge and full facts - I've been desperately trying to find why so many did this. All I can conclude is they either really really trust the Express/Sun/Fail papers (contrary to all known realms of sensibility) or they were just laying on anarchy. They either were not bothered enough or too lazy to look at the facts, hate experts with a passion or couldn't keep it in their pants until a GE.
This is apparently over half of the country!
Although I really do get why the rich tories voted leave, so that must make the figure slightly less concerning...

Why would rich Tories vote leave? Genuine question.

Yes expat - are you drunk?

Just as earlier I said we have no more shits to give. There's nothing here to stay for, or very little that won't be changed in the next 10 years. I want to be in a nice well rounded and accepting country, moving forwards, not backwards.

I kind of feel the same but on the other hand there is a lot to fight for and mainly and firstly IMO, a change from FPTP to PR. Here we are in the bizarre situation where a proportion of leavers voted because the EU is apparently so undemocratic , yet our democracy is a sham.

So though our government and soon to be PM without a mandate will be further to the right, Arron Banks has his eye on forming a far right opposition to the Tories, racist bilge and assaults are on the rise, we are about to close our doors on our nearest friends and neighbours in the belief that we couldn't possibly cooperate within a project in which we are one amongst many who have a voice and not in charge (ex bullying imperial power that we are), I still think it is all to play for.

I really hope that what has happened mobilises people to become politically engaged and campaign for a democratic voting system which will in turn empower the more progressive centre left voices in our society. A Green, LibDem, moderate Tory and moderate Labour alliance would IMO be a force for good. And one of the first things it should be doing is reversing some of the shocking inequality in our country through massive investment and much better sharing of the cherries that the SE of England holds on to.

The 2 main parties and our parliamentary system are IMO now dinosaurs which represent very few people. Instead of leaving the sinking ship, lets fix it.

And by country I mean the UK as a whole. I for one really hope that Scotland and NI do not leave us, but I don't see how they will ever forgive England for forcing them out of the EU.

Yes, you see at first I did want to fix it! I joined the Lib dems finally and emailed them the direction I could see the country going in. Am meant to be meeting the local representatives this weekend. Then I got a week of leavers calling me a "loon" and "bleeding heart liberal" "sore looser" "cry baby" etc etc. I am just done with these people. I have honestly spent most of my life trying to help. Other people. I am just simply done trying to sort out other people's careless mess.

A rich tory friend of mine said she has been wanting a far right govt for years. She thought Cameron was liberal. She wants the snoopers charter, she wants minimum wage lowered, she wants poor off welfare and doesn't shy away from the idea the NHS will never work. She has literally been waiting for this for decades. I doubt she is the only one.

All I can describe it as is being in a toxic relationship. For years you accept the verbal abuse, the challenges, the looks the way it makes you feel guilty for having more. Then suddenly one day they cross the line. They do something so irretrievable that you cannot look at them the same way any more. You see you have to stop enabling them and get out of the situation. You need to move on.

The irony is I can almost empathise now with my friend who's views I usually deplore! I don't want my morality to change but I need to find a place that isn't here for that to happen.

My rage isn't going away and I'm considering several options, but I live in London and I love it. I'm an EU national, as I said in a post upthread. It's now evident that the two Tory candidates want to secure the 52% of voters for themselves and will try to prevent them from going to ukip by adopting right wing policies. The only alternative would be a centre Labour/LibDem/Green coalition or new party which is openly pro European, formed straight away and with a clear vision.
As I said before, the only two Leavers I know are related to my husband and they live in leafy conservative areas out of London. One of them has always used the term "negress" to refer to black women, and "jewess" for Jewish women. The other, in a visit to London, took her daughter to a certain neighbourhood near our house in order to tell their friends they'd been to a black area. They took photographs and tell had the nerve to tell me how to keep safe if I ever go there (I go there all the time). So racist and offensive. Now they claim they voted Leave to get "our democracy back". Bullshit.

The only Leaver I know is a Scottish person who has lived in England most of their adult life.

thank god mumsnet doesn't reflect the views of society as a whole; because if it did, you'd imagine we were all living in a toxic, racist, burning hell hole, not one of the most tolerant (overly so) compassionate, democratic nations on the planet. If not THE most.
Over the past two weeks, I've read posts on here from people saying that they feel like vomiting, wake up in a panic every morning, want to stab someone, cry constantly etc. and we haven't even invoked article 50 yet.
It's contagious hysteria, like the unprecedented grief many felt for Princess Diana's death (which is now, years later, considered somewhat odd and mawkish)

However, we certainly can expel non-British paedophiles. The only circumstances when that might not be possible would be if there were a potential breach of his human rights, e.g. if he would be in danger of death or torture on return to his own country - and that is a consequence of our duties under the European Convention on Human Rights, which we drafted and to which we signed up in 1953, decades before we joined the EU.

I don't really think this is an EU issue at all. But hasn't there been a case where a paedofile couldn't be deported as he had a cat so would be against his human rights to deport him?