To ask why JC won't resign for the good of the party

[AndNowItsSeven]

Could anyone explain why JC won't resign given that Labour has a strong chance of winning a possible Autumn general election, if but only if Labour has a strong leader.

^What do you all mean by 'being a leader' though?
^Slick and media friendly?
^Saying what people want to hear?
Being a big personlaity?

Nope. An effective leader is one who can set out a clear vision and take the people they need with them. They can communicate effectively and build strong teams that work well. They listen to their teams. They are self-reflective and self-critical. And they build teams with basic competence in the key aspects of the job. And I'm sorry, in this century effective media management is a part of that if you are interested in getting elected. Otherwise the echo chamber of social media conversations with the faithful can be comforting but ineffective.

I don't want any of those. What is it you don't think JC can do which stops him from being a leader? What do you want from him?

I've got no idea what's stopping him. I've got no real idea what drove the part of the PLP that were supporting him and willing to serve under him and had a stake in his success to this point, including some of his very close supporters. But these are people who get to see close up his effectiveness in campaigning, in leading the party, and will have a better idea than most of what it takes to be effective in an election.

But any party leader should be able to articulate and effectively communicate a clear, comprehensive vision for the country and counter what the main party opposite are doing equally effectively. They don't get to opt out of the bits they don't like, they don't get to pull up the drawbridge to half the Parliamentary party because they're not deemed politically acceptable or because they were a bit nasty. They don't get to undermine their own organisation's goals because the Remain campaign is run by people they don't particularly like.

I don't think any part of Labour has covered itself in glory recently, but Corbyn doesn't get a free pass. He's brought a lot of this on himself.

I love Jeremy.

FF is also gay apparently. I will take a gay male who is anti abortion but who has demonstrated an ability to listen to people from all walks of life plus knows how Westminster works over any of the Tory candidates they are touting.

No idea if FF is gay or not and it doesn't matter one jot anyway. I think he is by far the best candidate available to us.

Frank Field is similarly too left wing.

Otherwise the echo chamber of social media conversations with the faithful can be comforting but ineffective

Too true. There's a danger of believing your own hype.

If he's pro-forced birth, then Frank Field is not that good at listening to people from all walks of life is he?

Why on Earth is someone who has such clear contempt for the electorate, considered a potentially good leader?

That's just wierd.

He really is a determined old bugger. Good on him.

There is a point at which stubbornness is a fault.

Is there a point in having a leader and a party which is not going to be electable?

A good leader knows when to compromise.

I think that's the issue Soren. There are two competing views on what the Labour party's goal should be/general philosophy. One is that to best protect and help the people who need it, the party needs to win elections as a priority. The other is that the party needs to be building a social movement from the grassroots up, and win elections as a secondary goal.

I don't see the point of them if they can't win elections

I mean, I do see how smaller parties can provide food for thought for the other parties and give them a nudge (eg UKIP) but I need labour to be a credible alternative to the tories.

I don't see the point of them if they can't win elections

That's a very reductionist view.

Is that Labour?
The same point the Tories had during the Blair years.

And any party, even if they never win elections, has a point. Smaller parties are more likely to rock the boat because they don't expect to win elections. Out of the box parties are always healthy in a democracy.

Cross post.

I see.

You never know, smaller parties can eventually replace larger parties. Particularly if people stop voting strategically.

he same point the Tories had during the Blair years

Labour was unelectable before Blair. We had a Tory Government since 1979 - 1997. 18 years.

Did the Conservatives become complacent and did Blair change the Labour party?

The we had Labour - but they became unelectable following the Blair / Brown years. Did Cameron / the Lib Dems win OR did Labour lose?

Now - we have an unpopular Conservative Government and a Labour party with a leader who may well be unpalatable to some but fine to others.

I don't want the Conservatives back but I fear that Labour is going to be seen as having a leader who people don't see as PM material.

As a centrist libertarian, I would vote for a neo-blairite labour party. There's definitely a vacancy for the centre-ground. I certainly woudn't vote for a too far left leaning labour party. I'm not keen on the tories but they'd certainly be in the frame if it was them or Corbyn.

Lweji, I do see your point but I'm exactly the kind of floating voter that Labour could woo... but not if they have as their leader someone who is so unsupported by the majority of his MPs. If he can't lead his MPs how can he ever lead the country?

i think this may be the wake up call Labour need and maybe they'll split into two parties, the socialist side and the neo liberal blairite side. I know which one would get my backing.

That's a very reductionist view

And that comes back to the central question, doesn't it - what is the party for. Is it to try to make things better/protect working people now, or try to build a grassroots movement for change.

I would have thought they'd be better to get in power through appealing to the moderate/centre voters then try to change things once in power rather than build a grassroots movement which is unlikely to get in power.

He is listening to the party members, who are still on his side I think.

Yes but he is alienating all the centre left floating voters like me in the process!

He wants to win the battle, but will lose the war.

If he loses, the Labour party is finished.

I hope there is a leadership contest. I have joined the labour party today (I always voted labour) but I want him out. I was happy when he was first elected but he has shown he can't lead the party. The Conservative party are in turmoil and instead of being a robust opposition, Jeremy is taking Labour to a place where they are unelectable. It is a mess.

I am actually starting to feel really bad for JC. He obviously thinks he is doing the right thing for the party - it would be much easier to quit but he is standing up and doing a difficult thing in the face of hostility.

He is looking so stressed. :-(