To ask what leavers have against Poles?

[allegretto]

I keep on seeing posts complaining about Poles (hardworking, young and pay more taxes than they take out). Why?? Most Poles go back after a few years anyway! I know people say it was not a racist decision - so I don't get it. A good proportion of the pensioners in Spain will be back when pensions are frozen and they DO use the NHS and other resources more due to age. So why are they preferable if not rac ism?

Yeah....we are all football thugs, who hate anyone who isn't white, anyone who isn't Catholic and we just sit around drinking wódka all day

Sorry, being facetious!

Sorry, being facetious!

My apologies to all East Europeans, including the footie fans. I have several friends from east of Vienna and intended no insult. It was meant to be a lighthearted moment, but this referendum has clearly eliminated any sense of humour struck too close to the nerves.

cresset my sense of humour is in tact....its just become a lot more difficult to differentiate lighthearted jokes from genuinely malicious comments in recent months!

Going back to the original question, I've found as a teacher that Polish students have been without exception conscientious and really well behaved. I live in a small market town like one previously described though. Wages are low. Polish immigration is high. There is also a very visible minority of Polish men who booze openly on the street and leave their litter in a disused shop doorway. They really don't do their compatriots' reputation any good but most people only see that. They don't get to compare the behaviour of Polish and many British kids in school.

Just to add, in a very small town the minor antisocial behaviour is very visible unfortunately.

I'll give you my perspective as a daughter of Eastern European parents, and I speak the language too.

Both my dps came to this country as skilled workers, and were basically from peasant backgrounds. Their words, not mine.

They were here long before the EU was formed.

They have both voted out due to not liking being told what to do by the EU, as they both lived under communism, and feel it is just the same structure.

I know of parents at my dd's school who are from my dps country, and none of them would speak to me. I bet as soon as I opened my mouth to talk to these people in my dps language they would speak to me. I find it such a shame that people in my home town don't intergrate as much as I would have liked.

When my dps had me and db at school, my mum would talk to everyone, and was inclusive.

I went to school speaking this language, and didn't have any form of support that the kids have today.

I have a friend who is a teacher, and she has to constantly remind the Polish kids to not speak their language in class as they are excluding others. This is at a Catholic school. It does sadden me, that they get this support, obviously at an extra cost to the education system, and they are not using it within the school system.

It is earth-shatteringly sad to read your words Longdistance.

JenniferYellowHat, I live in a town not dissimilar to yours wherever yours is, and can only say that men (all creeds and colours) separated from their female relatives and friends, do tend have a tendency to go off the rails. I think it must be testostorone. They loose the ability to self regulate, which is probably why sports crowds can be so volatlile.

They have both voted out due to not liking being told what to do by the EU, as they both lived under communism, and feel it is just the same structure.

Longdistance it's very interesting that they see such a similarity.

It is when I've been hearing friends saying that their company have been telling them how they should vote.

This is what my dps had under communism weirdly.

That has just made me think of something; the children (not all, but some) in the Junior school one of my children goes to that are polish and only arrived here ready to start in Juniors (so weren't in the UK for Infant school) tend to stick together and speak to each other in Polish (my son told me ages ago) but the ones who start school from nursery/reception all communicate in English and are more integrated.

Its a shame though I suppose its natural. Interested to know what happens when they all move on to secondary school.

Formerbabe, to answer your questions about the effect mass migration to the UK has had:
When Poland entered the EU in 2004, the rate of unemployment was about 20%. A lot of the EU countries put restrictions on the new joiners coming to work (they were allowed to block it for up to 7 years). The UK government expected that only about 50k Poles would come over so they didn't put any restrictions in place. They obviously underestimated the number massively...

What has happened in Poland since - unemployment fell, wages went up, economy grew and in the last couple of years it got to the stage that there were a lot of jobs and noone to fill them. the government has allowed Ukrainians to come and work so there's a growing number of them in manufacturing and agriculture. Since joining the EU, Poland has also become an OECD country and is considered developed as opposed to developing.
As far as I am aware there hasn't been any skills shortage as a result of this and there's a general sense of people being overqualified for the jobs they do (employers commonly require ALevels to stack shelves in a supermarket or degrees to be a receptionist). However, I have come across some discontent about Polish people getting educated and 'invested in' by the state to then bugger off to Western Europe (free education, including free universities + ample bursaries to support poor students have been in place for decades + parents legally obliged to provide for their children in full time education up to the age of 26).

When it comes to the Poles in the UK, there is a large group who came here 'for a year or two' and are still here 5 or 10 years later. They usually came to save up and go back but can't quite face upping the sticks and starting all over again in Poland so they just keep talking about it and postponing moving back. I think they are the group more likely to keep themselves to themselves and perhaps not learn that much English.

Many opportunities for adults to learn English have closed down or cost the earth.

randomer that may well be true. But the internet was not available, or books at such a variety level that is available today, when my dps came to this country.

You could only buy the books from specialist bookshops in their home country, and that would have been in the capital city and at an extortionate price and questions asked why you needed the book

Randomer I spent a couple of years as a migrant worker in another EU country in the early 90s (pre-internet). I had studied the language for just one year beforehand and paid for my own classes once there. I read grammar books in the evening, watched TV and read papers and magazines in the language, made friends with natives, asked them to correct me, was happy to make a complete arse of myself at times with my mistakes. I worked in factories and also customer facing jobs like bars and waitressing. No translators for me at work or the bank or the doctor's or the town hall where I renewed my work permit, I had to muddle along. I was pretty fluent after two years. I have zero sympathy or patience for people who don't bother to learn the language of the place they live in, whether it's British/ Irish in the Costas or the cleaner in my office who doesn't speak any English after eight years. It's just rude.

(incidentally I have nothing against Poles either to go back to the title of the thread, but there are many people affected by the impact cheaper workers have on the jobs market, housing and access to publicly funded services and it is very wrong to dismiss their concerns as racism or xenophobia)

not everybody is blessed with a good ear for languages. Look at small children,they learn so quickly because their minds are not fully formed. Adults find it much harder and I don't think there's anything wrong with giving a helping hand.
Often when people have a few basic structures and some vocabulary they can go out and expand their knowledge.
Right now,in some places people aren't too keen on " chatting" to non English speakers.

Right now,in some places people aren't too keen on " chatting" to non English speakers.

Where do you mean randomer?

Im shit at languages but dad did his 2 years national service abroad and became quite fluent. He always said that if you really wanted to learn you could - you just need the right motivation (chatting up local girls maybe, eh dad?).

Nothing. They keep things upright.
Shit sorry wrong poles.
(Joking) slowly creeping away... .. .
Voted in fyi. ..
Fuck this bollocks.

Nowt wrong with immigrants. Plenty wrong with arrogant politicians.

With freedom of movement there are winners and losers. The rich do well from cheap labour. It's not so good if you are one of the poor people.

I feel that managing local services is important, but that is the failure of arrogant politicians.

I think the "Leavers" see two different categories of immigrants. Those that come here to work are welcome. Those that come here with no intention of working are a drain on British taxpayers money. What do you think the British have against Polish people OP?

There have been attacks on polish people and the polish cultural building in Hammersmith was graffitied with anti Polish crap.

I haven't met many immigrants who sit round doing nothing. However there are plenty of immigrants who are prepared to work very hard for very little money. Often immigrants are prepared to accept really poor working conditions and the local poor find themselves in a race to the bottom. This is why they resent immigration. People don't hate poles or Romanians, they hate the fact that it has become an employer's market.

There is the issue that child tax credits and housing benefit have subsidised very low salaries from employers. In the past if you wanted a cleaner in central London you had to pay her enough to cover her costs. Tax credits bring up low pay to a living wage.