To ask what leavers have against Poles?

[allegretto]

I keep on seeing posts complaining about Poles (hardworking, young and pay more taxes than they take out). Why?? Most Poles go back after a few years anyway! I know people say it was not a racist decision - so I don't get it. A good proportion of the pensioners in Spain will be back when pensions are frozen and they DO use the NHS and other resources more due to age. So why are they preferable if not rac ism?

[allwornout0]

My friend voted leave mainly for immigration reasons.
She says she has nothing against Poles yet complains that they are taking over schools etc. She seems to be doing what a lot of people are and regarding all eastern Europeans as Poles regardless of what country they are from.
If she hears anyone white talking a different language which isn't one that is taught at school (French, Spanish etc) she automatically thinks 'Oh God, Not more Poles'.
The fact that these people are usually not Poles at all but Romanian, Hungarian etc doesn't seem to make any difference to her.
I think her comment of "If we say anything about Asians we are called racist but can get away with saying things about Poles as they are white" was very worrying.

[sorenofthejnaii]

Reading the DM comments section on the attack on the Polish centre, it seems that commentators think that Poles are the 'decent' immigrants. Not like 'the other Eastern Europeans'

[originalmavis]

Or 'them Muslims'. Uh huh, yes, attack the Polish because they are all Muslims. They haven't a fucking clue.

[Just5minswithDacre]

Often immigrants are prepared to accept really poor working conditions and the local poor find themselves in a race to the bottom.

When you're talking about the bottom income decile, everybody (regardless of nationality, ethnicity or immigration status status) ends up competing for the same resources, competing for the same housing, oversupplying the same low-pay, unskilled labour market segment. I've seen it close up and I have long thought it cruel. Big business is delighted to have more and more victims always arriving as a neverending deflationary labour force. Hopeful arrivals are doing what anyone of us would do and seeking the best possible quality of life for their children and themselves. Frontline public services take the strain. And it doesn't stop.

So that unskilled labour segment is a completely different demographic is a completely different kettle of fish from my Spanish and Polish friends and EU-born acquaintances generally who are qualified professionals and graduates who use NHS and schools but no other services and pay hefty tax.

And different again from the large segment of EU-born Brits and British residents who are skilled self-employed.

In fact, some of the people who have expressed the harshest views to me about the unskilled migrants who get on a bus and try their luck (and who can blame them) are professional Poles, who think it's irresponsible to arrive with no plan and can't see that a horrible 'streets are paved with gold' con trick is being perpetrated.

So, from where I'm standing, it's as utterly meaningless to say 'immigrants do this, think that, work at the other' as it is to say 'everybody who voted X, did so because Y'.

It's all very complex and messy and people don't necessarily do, think and vote what the stereotype would have them do, think and vote.

I KNOW that some friends who were originally immigrants voted 'out' and that several liberal lefty (not even hard left) friends also voted out because of what they see in their social work, healthcare and homelessness type jobs in London.

I also know of at least one bigot inlaw who was very loud about voting in.

So, it's complex. And we really need to start recognising and engaging with the complexity as a society, because constantly reducing things to their stereotypes won't move us forward.

[shins]

Random you don't have to speak perfectly- when I lived abroad I knew lots of people whose grammar was wonky, but they were able to chat away and do their jobs and function well in everyday life. Some of them had little formal education and they still managed without translators and interpreters. Why show up somewhere not knowing the language and expect the onus to be on others to help you, and to foot the bill? There's something fundamentally wrong with that attitude.

[WeekendAway]

That was a brilliant post Just5

I wish more people would consider all those points you raised and how complex the whole thing is before they distill it down to simple racism and inward thinking by Middle England Baby Boomer bigots.

[Just5minswithDacre]

The thing is, government needs to do more.

They've been utterly laissez faire about massive demographic shifts.

They've cut TEFL classes and opted to let infrastructure take care of itself. It doesn't take care of itself.

The labour market has been increasingly polarized for 2 or 3 decades. Again no effective intervention.

And now the whole cauldron has reached boiling point, they're happy to step back while everybody blames each other and hatred grows.

It is so wrong.

[loona13]

Here are some examples of having a go at Poles
www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/26/racist-incidents-feared-to-be-linked-to-brexit-result-reported-in-england-and-wales?CMP=share_btn_fb

Oh, and MariaSklodowska there were three of them who broke Enigma ;-) But in recent film Brits claimed all credit, not even mentioning Polish.

[BeckerLleytonNever]

To ask what Remainers have against older people who voted leave.

Ageism.

[randomer]

I agree people can cobble together an attempt to speak the language. These are often the hardest students to teach because bad habits have formed.

I stand by my assertion that giving somebody a few basic verbs,tenses and vocabulary gives them some base. It is not always feasible to become fluent in a language before you arrive.