To ask what leavers have against Poles?

[allegretto]

I keep on seeing posts complaining about Poles (hardworking, young and pay more taxes than they take out). Why?? Most Poles go back after a few years anyway! I know people say it was not a racist decision - so I don't get it. A good proportion of the pensioners in Spain will be back when pensions are frozen and they DO use the NHS and other resources more due to age. So why are they preferable if not rac ism?

[Just5minswithDacre]

I have already said it was in FB. And it was posted by family so I am not outing them on here!

You didn't mention your family OR facebook on your OP.

You can't judge half the voting population of the UK by the standards of your xenophobic family!

[WallisSimpson11]

Sunsetplumset THANK YOU.

If only this kind of education could be adopted in the English syllabus, then perhaps and just maybe, the next generation can begin to understand what Britain OWES to some of those Commonwealth countries.
Imagine how many children in Mumbai could benefit from the sale of the Koh Noor diamond- which is just perched on someone's head to be admired)

[Just5minswithDacre]

If only this kind of education could be adopted in the English syllabus, then perhaps and just maybe, the next generation can begin to understand what Britain OWES to some of those Commonwealth countries.
Imagine how many children in Mumbai could benefit from the sale of the Koh Noor diamond- which is just perched on someone's head to be admired

It's already pretty widely understood but bears many repetitions.

The message would benefit from someone as vile as yourself stepping away from it, though.

[jollygoose]

of course there is nothing at all wrong with Polish people, they are known to be hard working and going back further they were very much our war time allies. When people object to Poles it is generally because of the sheer numbers of eastern european people. Some areas of the UK have so many that it no longer feels like their own country and anyone waiting for a council house or good school place can become resentful.
Please remember there are many other reasons for voting out.

[Scaredycat3000]

We stitched up Poland properly after they were our Allies in WW2, we handed them over to Russia, Poland still hasn't recovered.
If it wasn't so sad it would be funny but IME the work ethic, honesty and hard work of the Polish is better than many British. And defiantly more so than many of our Common wealth residents.

[almondpudding]

Okay, OP, so you accept that Polish who pay all this in money in taxes are not actually going to be banned from the UK.

So you're asking for people's opinions on a, by your own admission, wholly fantastical scenario?

The reason why I (in this fictional and wholly fantastical scenario) support pensioners (UK citizens) returning to the UK more than I support economic migrants moving to the UK is because I believe in international human rights.

It is the aim of the UN for every person in the world to have a birth certificate as a human right, which entitles everyone to citizenship of a nation and the right to reside in their homeland. These are basic human rights.

There is not a basic human right served by the UK allowing many Polish people to move here (although I don't mind the arrival of the Polish).

It is not racist to make a distinction between citizens and non citizens in a democracy, in terms of residence (although continued residence is key for those Polish already established here who want to remain).

Racial discrimination is not some nebulous accusation for people to vaguely comprehend. It is defined by international convention. Distinctions between citizens and non citizens not being a form of racial discrimination in these government decisions is stated in article 1 of the international convention on elimination of racial discrimination.

[HandsomeGroomGiveHerRoom]

The Remain campaign, and previously Labour, completely failed to address the valid fears and predicament of those people jolly , whilst the Leave campaign and the Conservatives prior to the 2015 GE exploited it ruthlessly. There would have been no referendum had Cameron not chosen to use it as a cheap trick manifesto bribe.

[MariaSklodowska]

ah OK OP so someone in your family is posting objectionable stuff about Polish people on their FB?
You should have made that much clearer. the way is was worded made it sound quite different. maybe have a word with your family member?

[WallisSimpson11]

Just5minswithDacre - Ouch!

[Just5minswithDacre]

Just5minswithDacre - Ouch!

Well, seriously, how can you possibly champion anti-racism, when you are spouting such technicolour class-hatred?

[Owllady]

We did take in Polish refugees after the war. There were/are quite large polish communities in Staffordshire (for example). But yes, they were treated appalling during ww2. What Germany didn't ruin, the Russians finished off :(

[allegretto]

Almond - I am sure the British OAPs in Spain who wanted to stay there will be so happy that due to their human rights they have to go back to the UK!

[WallisSimpson11]

Just5minswithDacre What do you know about both subjects?

Have you ever experienced Racism and do you know or have you been affected by Colonialism?

[PaniWahine]

I can understand why some voted to leave, when the perception is immigrants are overloading social services, but I think perhaps they may have targeted the wrong group (Eastern Europeans). I remember watching An Inconvenient Truth five or six years ago, and the biggest EU immigrant claimants of social services in the UK (based on percentage of population) were surprisingly the Portuguese, but there was a story behind that, being the Brazilians of Portugese descent. The biggest overall claimants of social services were from South East Asia and Africa eg India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nigeria, Eithiopia and Ghana.
When I lived in the UK my visa stated 'no public services', so my social worker housemate and I could never understand how these groups managed to get benefits and housing. I wonder if it's some groups are quick to call racism to get what they want? I certainly think if these groups were deported from the UK because they cannot support themselves, it would free up social services and then this EU backlash wouldn't have perhaps occurred.
In my case my OH is Polish, and my boss in the UK when he heard this asked if I had chosen him because I couldn't get a 'normal man'... Err no, he makes me weak at the knees and worships the ground I walk upon all the while being the sweetest kind guy I know. We live in Ireland now and while there's a lot of poles in our estate (I'd say 10%), there's probably the same in terms of number of Filipinos. We know all of our neighbours names about four doors along in both directions, plus plenty more around the estate to say hello to as we live beside the green and often meet neighbours walking their dogs and we dish out candy in fancy dress at Halloween so I'd say we are very integrated in the community. It helps that the OH is in the motor trade so often gets asked to change a light bulb or change a tyre etc Newish estates are forced to be 10% social housing here (ours is 10 years old), and the social housing is taken up by one Portugese family, six Irish families, four Nigerian families and one Lithuanian family (yes, I know which they are as I'm on the management board). The few houses known for sleeping multiple immigrants to a room are SE Asian and Brazilians (again, as I get landed with complaints!)
I'd support a ban on EU migrants receiving public support (housing, benefits but not healthcare or schooling) for five years, and non EU for ten years.

[cressetmama]

The Leavers of my acquaintance had various reasons for choosing to vote as they did: some find the idea of a union of Europe strays too far beyond the customs union they voted for; others think that Brussels is a distant, arrogant, wasteful, verging-on corrupt cabal of un-elected officials on a gravy train; many feel that we should have an Australian style points system for work permits, based on occupational shortages and economic requirements. None of those are racist reasons.

However, the distribution of the Leave vote demonstrates that it is the less educated in the regions with the weakest economies and worst public services provision that bear the brunt of migration from the Accession countries. If the dozen or so European graduates working within 200 metres of our workplace were to leave tomorrow, their employers would struggle to fill their jobs from the local labour pool. That doesn't say much for the quality of the local school.

[Scaredycat3000]

We did take in Polish refugees after the war.
Well I'm sure taking in a few Poles made up for handing their whole country over to Russia voluntarily when new boarders were drawn up. We were happily for their help in winning the war, but not enough to draw a border with then in the western world.

[randomer]

why are people chewing curd....lemon curd?

[HandsomeGroomGiveHerRoom]

I had to sit on my hands, randomer

[WallisSimpson11]

cud NOT curd

[thebestfurchinchilla]

However, the distribution of the Leave vote demonstrates that it is the less educated in the regions Have you seen the voting map. You are basically saying that most of England is not well educated...

[Peregrina]

However, the distribution of the Leave vote demonstrates that it is the less educated in the regions with the weakest economies and worst public services provision that bear the brunt of migration from the Accession countries.

I believe that it is only the case in Lincolnshire and East Anglia are hosting large numbers of immigrants. I don't believe that e.g. Cornwall is, although they do have poor public services and weak economies. However, other places, like London which do have large numbers of immigrants, voted hugely for Remain.

[thebestfurchinchilla]

Sorry cresset I misread your post.

[Peregrina]

It's mostly regions in the North and Cornwall who voted Leave. As areas with little work many young people will have migrated elsewhere, leaving the elderly behind. The older population are less well educated simply because the school leaving age wasn't raised to 16 until 1975, so a majority did not stay on to take even O levels, never mind A levels and higher education.

Younger votes who now are better educated voted predominantly to Remain.

[WeekendAway]

I'm taking the liberty of lifting this from another thread I posted on earlier to explain at least in part, why it would appear that 'educated' people voted to remain and 'uneducated' people voted to leave.

The quality of a degree has for a long time now been debated. Other than the core professional degrees, many are in fact training by another name. Or indoctrination.

I replied:

This is true. I know plenty of(mostly young) people who have degrees but are by no means of superior intelligence to many older people who do not. Neither do I consider them to be better educated, more well read or more politically aware than most people without degrees.*

I think the 'educated people mostly voted Remain' and 'uneducated people mostly voted Leave' argument is rather simplistic and can be explained in part by the fact that young people voted Remain and ^older people voted Leave. In the last 20 years there has been the most enormous shift in the number of people going to university so if you look at the number of degree holders among the over 50's and compare it to the number in the under 30's you will get your answer.

I think it's a bit of a red herring and says very little about the intelligence of many voters.

That said, I don't doubt that plenty of working class, poorly educated, possibly quite thick, impoverished and disenfranchised people who blame immigration (and especially recent high levels of immigration) for everything and can't see past 'brown people get all the council houses' voted Leave.

But it is overly simplistic and patronising to simply state that uneducated people voted to leave and educated people voted to remain.

[MyBreadIsEggy]

I was born in Poland. My mother is Polish, my father is British. We came to England when I was 5, and then flitted backwards and forwards between here and Poland.
My dad is from a part of the U.K. that is famous for its huge influx of Eastern European migrant agricultural workers and the locals are not exactly shy about voicing their xenophobic opinions - most recently, on national news It was made abundantly clear to me, from the age of 5 when I started school here, that me and my family were not welcome. I was subjected to horrific, xenophobic bullying, especially at high school - as were other Polish/Lithuanian/Latvian kids.
And guess what?? The town I grew up in had a "Leave" majority. Even my fathers own parents and siblings have spouted xenophobic vitriol throughout the referendum campaigns, then attempted to cover their arses with phrases like "Yeah but you're not those kind of immigrants" My own grandparents for fuck sake!
If my DH didn't have the job he has which forces us to stay in the UK, I would have absolutely no hesitation about taking him and my Dd to Poland. This referendum has brought out the worst in people - and to be honest, I thought I had already seen the worst while I was having my head smashed against a brick wall as a teenager at school
Obviously not all "Leave" voters are idiotic, xenophobes. I can completely understand why some people made an informed, educated decision to vote to leave. But a lot of voters (speaking about people from where I grew up that I'm FB friends with) that just zeroed in on immigration being only reason to leave and went on "let's get rid of these scrounging foreigners" rants on Facebook