To wish we could get some decent advice on whether to vote to Brexit or Bremain

[lougle]

I am an intelligent woman. I am well educated. I can't for the life of me work out what is truth and what is fiction. I have no idea what is right for this country.

I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction. But I don't have the first clue which way to vote. I'm a nurse and I love my NHS, if that makes a difference to how I should vote.

BOTH sides are using quite black propaganda. I think that Leave is being a little more clever and positive in the way they are doing it.

Historically, studies tend to show that the public favour positive messages so I'm not surprised its going down better. It may well win it for them.

It is detracting from what people really have to choose between though.

I don't find that terribly democratic in approach to be honest.

To me democracy is not just about layers of civil service and our ability to vote. Its also about how politicians decide to manipulate voters. Democratic debate should rest on getting to the heart of issues and coming up with policies as potential solutions to problems so that the public can make an educated and informed decision.

Do you think that's what we are getting?

And we are all whinging about the EU? And some see Leave as some sort of saviour from this?

I have friends who are European and I see them as every bit as equal. The Little England nationalism is tiresome, and inaccurate anyway. I reject it

Er good for you DH is part two other European nationalities, DSIL is Polish, cousins married, Spanish, Italian and Dutch, as well as African and the list goes on. Family live all over the world.

It little Europe we are focusing on here, there is a great big world out there....

I want to vote for RedToothBrush

Democratic debate should rest on getting to the heart of issues and coming up with policies as potential solutions to problems so that the public can make an educated and informed decision

Ah I see.

But we cannot do that on immigration because we are not allowed too.

We are not allowed to because we are part of the EU we are not in control. We can debate and scream and riot in the UK it makes no difference because we are in the EU.

Ergo, we have no democracy we cannot control whats best for us as a country.

Summer, it's not just immigration. Tampon tax, Scotland's efforts to legislate minimum unit alcohol pricing are two other examples.

I think it deserves another try. I wonder how hard our leaders have been really trying to sort out immigration, since it invariably suits the higher echelons of society more than the lower. The fact that there has been a referendum in the UK is a good start, the undeniable amount of disaffectation across the EU is growing. If we talk to the other countries with large amounts of disaffection, particularly those with higher population densities or increases, we may be able to get the centre to see sense. The problem is the current top-heavy power structures everywhere, in London as well as Brussels, more than in Brussels. We will still be stuck with them if we leave, and they will be in a stronger position as we grow economically more desperate.

I think it deserves another try.

Fair enough I guess we've only been in 43 years.

Family live all over the world.

Likewise.

Does that mean I can't identify as British European?

Last time I checked, even if we did have trade agreements with other places it wouldn't make me British American because Britain is in Europe.

We have close cultural and historical ties with Europe. Why is this a bad thing? Its being framed as if it is. Why is Europe is a dirty word. There are plenty of good European things - not necessarily even EU things.

This also doesn't take anything away from our Commonwealth ties as that is part of the British bit of my identity too.

I see making a declaration of being a British European as a pretty positive thing to say. Should I be ashamed of my heritage? Do I need to only emphasis the British bit?

It comes down to democracy for me. We are big enough to stand on our own two feet. We still have infrastructure politically that can enable us to leave so should take our chance while we can.

The reality is that the EU has had 30 years to sort out their negative hole that it called democracy and transparency. It hasn't been done and never will be because 'they' don't think they need to.

It is wholly unacceptable to me that we the people of the UK do not have a direct say on who is President. I find it wholly unacceptable that EU persons don't need to show receipts for reimbursed expenses of any monetary amount.

I also have a big problem with EU spending. I'm from the north west. Liverpool is a prime example of the EU workings. They pumped billions into the city and nothing has fundamentally changed for those who live there. Jobs are scarce and the poverty is real except that now it goes on behind some new build house so is somewhat hidden.

Also arguments about a recession are bonkers. Things started slowing down here in the US last year with the low oil price. In another year the UK will be in a recession regardless of their membership to the EU.

Why is this a bad thing? Its being framed as if it is. Why is Europe is a dirty word. There are plenty of good European things - not necessarily even EU things ]
No that's how your framing it. Everyone I have heard on this issue for leave says they love Europe, holiday there, family there, family from there.

They just don't want to be married to it and have to hand over money and power to it.

And your mention earlier of the White British and the migrant was odd, if you see my respons earlier you will see quotes from minorities who see the EU as a huge white fortress thats racist. Its hard to get passed that, when we turn away people from other countries like India, Pakistan, China, and Africa in favor of white Europeans largely with few skills?

Oh and with regards to our military, why do you think we are shrinking our armed forces? Use your brain and think about it. A country with a larger military is more powerful. Eu has been trying to get an EU army together for a long time and they don't want the British running it. That is also another excellent reason to get the heck out. Truth is that in Europe we, along with the Polish have the best trained military by a long shot. Dismantling our military is foolish at best and extremely dangerous in the long run.

I'm from the north west. Liverpool is a prime example of the EU workings. They pumped billions into the city and nothing has fundamentally changed for those who live there

Well Birkenhead is a stones throw from there and Frank Field is trying to appeal to peoples - Labour voters compassion to vote out to help the poor.

I think I'm going to park my replies for the day in view of the breaking news.

Inappropriate to do so further.

Birkenhead is exactly the same. My uncle and aunt own a business and were paid to move production from Birkenhead to Ireland. Today they are multimillionaires while the people who worked in their factory are living hand to mouth in poverty.

I am with Frank Field. I love him! Such a shame he isn't PM.

Andrew Neil on the Daily Politics asked leading Brexit campaigner, Labour MP Kate Hoey if she could produce just ONE independent report from just ONE independent source that stated that Britain would be better off if it left the EU. Or even one that said we'd be as well off or no worse off if we left.

She admitted there wasn't one study that said this. You can see the video of it yourself if you look for it.

That's encouraging, then.

I think part of Remains problem is that many of them don't actually like the EU that much. They just feel that, however bad it is, we're better off in than out.

It's much easier to be passionate about the potential for change if we leave. Hence Leave supporters are more likely to be definite voters.

Oh and with regards to our military, why do you think we are shrinking our armed forces? Use your brain and think about it. A country with a larger military is more powerful. Eu has been trying to get an EU army together for a long time and they don't want the British running it. That is also another excellent reason to get the heck out. Truth is that in Europe we, along with the Polish have the best trained military by a long shot. Dismantling our military is foolish at best and extremely dangerous in the long run.

No, we're reducing our military because its hugely expensive, largely unnecessary and the makeup of forces required has changed - we have the largest standing army in Europe.

We have NATO. We have the UN. There will not be an EU force.

I'm finding it a really difficult decision. I want to be in the EU but not the EU we have. I worry if we stay it will continue to grumble on supporting big business and stopping us having minimum alcohol pricing laws and supporting state run industries but am concerned the right wing tories then take over if we Brexit. On the other hand if we don't exit now I'm not convinced we'll get another chance to vote leave as so many on the left say the whole idea of a referendum was wrong.
In Scotland we're protected against the worst tory excesses but then Nicola may want another referendum and if we leave the UK to then send us back in to the EU but with less negotiating power as we're smaller.

I am seriously concerned that when the European Union sign up to TTIP it will mean the end of the minimum wage and a lot of workers rights. This forthcoming deal is hardly being mentioned by either side.

2rebecca I think you're me. Those are exactly the dilemmas I'm struggling with (also in Scotland). I tried the questionnaire posted on the first page of this thread and it told me I was 50/50 undecided, so not a lot of help there! The most helpful article I've read so far has been this one by Paul Mason. It's almost got me decided to vote in, though your point about there not being another chance is worrying me.

Full Facts on TTIP

Unlucky 83

"still assuming the 0.3% argument is correct - and I haven't looked into it. Assuming your personal total expenditure is £20k pa - that would mean you would be happy to give £600 to your neighbours because it is only 0.3% of your expenditure? after all its not enough to buy a new car or pay for the family summer holiday on its own?"

Well, to start with, 0.3% is £60 per year, not 600.

"And thinking about it giving them the £600 also gives them the right to tell you how you manage your affairs - which shops you can use, how you should have your garden, what colour to paint your house, what car you should drive?
Does that sound like such a good deal?"

That £60 also gives you the chance to tell them how to manage their affairs!

A lot of my left wing friends are saying "we should be out but not now". The last referendum was 41 years ago. 4 years of a right wing tory administration is nothing to waiting another 40 years. If Brexit happens then I suspect the whole EU structure would get overhauled and there would probably be a vote to join some new structure in the next decade.
Voting remain seems a more permanent decision to voting out.

Voting remain seems a more permanent decision to voting out.

On one hand I agree, but in the three remaining years of the Tory government, Boris and pals could lock us in to some seriously detrimental long-term trade deals which would be impossible to unravel for decades.

I believe a lot of the Brexiters are nihilists who don't care if the county goes down as they have nothing to lose. Pretty scary

We have plenty to loose but so much to gain, our freedom.

Anyway not everyone thinks its gloom on the horizon.