To wish we could get some decent advice on whether to vote to Brexit or Bremain

[lougle]

I am an intelligent woman. I am well educated. I can't for the life of me work out what is truth and what is fiction. I have no idea what is right for this country.

I don't want to spoil my vote. I want to vote, and vote with conviction. But I don't have the first clue which way to vote. I'm a nurse and I love my NHS, if that makes a difference to how I should vote.

unlucky But you're spouting nonsense. I would totally agree with you if ALL our laws were imposed on us by the EU and how we spent all our money was prescribed by the EU. But neither is true. 13% of our laws have an EU element. And some of that 13% aren't prescribed wholly by the EU, but have an element. But those 13% include things like the maximum working hours directive and Human Rights legislation and I will not apologise for saying that I'm quite happy to have those, as without them workers in this country would be far worse off.

Yes we get some money back - but not even the most ardent remainers (afaik) say we get back exactly what we put in in cash - we are a net contributor - think the most favourable figures from remain is we get back about 2/3rds of what we put in.

And the question is whether the other benefits are worth it.

purits, that is absolutely the debate and discussion to have. But 'would you buy it/would you join' seems like a fundamentally deceitful approach to me, because it obscures the costs of leaving.

Intelligent people don't vote for 'the same' when they know that 'the same' won't stay 'the same', it will morph into something else aka ever greater union.

#brexit

There is just so much information it is very difficult to make sense of it all. My gut instinct is to vote leave so that is what I am doing.

OP: this is the Royal College of Nursing's info on it. They're stopped short of coming down on either side, it would seem. I'm a student midwife, adn the RCM are in the Remain camp.

www.rcn.org.uk/about-us/international/eu-referendum

Personally, I'm Remain. The brexiters are absolutely deluded if they think we'll be able to negotiate better trade deals as a tiny island outside of the EU. They're deludedif they think we'll be allowed the same position as Normawy and Switzerland - and let's not forget that norway, Sweden etc pay into the EU but don't actually get a say in what's going on.

Brexiters bleat about turkey and other countries joining the EU: as things stand, the UK has a veto vote for that! And they ant to give it up? Lunacy!

Farage whines on about the British fishing industry, yet he was a memeber for the EU fishing committee and only turned up to 1 of 42 meetings. hugh Fernley Whittingstall - sleb chef, not MEP like Farage - discovered the EU fishing policy on discarding caught fish, took direct action and got the policy overturned. He succeeded where Farage couldn't even be arsed to try! How any thinking person can ally themselves with Farage is simply beyond me.

Remain: no idea of what will happen, but part of a mechanism for changing it

This is from Guest chat with Andrea Leadsom on why she decided to vote out, she was working within government on a project to see what reform we could get:

For me, I spent a lot the last Parliament setting up and running the" Fresh Start project" with a group of other MPs. Our hope was that if analysed how the EU affects the UK we could propose serious reforms to make it work better for all members. I thought we would stay in a profoundly different EU. And it was only when the PM came back with clear evidence that the EU is unreformable, that I decided we are far better off by leaving. (Most of my Fresh Start colleagues concluded the same.)

It cant be reformed, there is no point trying.

The brexiters are absolutely deluded if they think we'll be able to negotiate better trade deals as a tiny island outside of the EU

Oh yes a tiny island with worlds 5th largest economy Big isn't always better you know

Brexiters bleat about turkey and other countries joining the EU: as things stand, the UK has a veto vote for that! And they ant to give it up?

Um yes because once we get rid of the EU passport -there will be little chance of Turks being able to access the UK in large numbers we cant control.

OP this was a great web chat with a very erudite lady.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_live_events/2658126-EU-Referendum-Webchat-with-Andrea-Leadsom-MP-Tuesday-14-June-at-1pm?pg=3

Immigration is a red herring and is the biggest bit of scaremongering that the Brexit campaign has and boy do they know how to use it.

Gove says if we leave we can introduce an Australian points system and we can control our own borders and prevent too much immigration. Gove is Tory. The Tories said they would get migration down to tens of thousands and have failed. Why do they think they would suddenly be able to control immigration?

If we agree, because it is true, that we can't control migration from the EU, if we're all so worried about this flux of immigration, why haven't the Tories, you know, the current Govt who want to get immigration down, STOPPED immigration from OUTSIDE the EU? Because they could actually do that now. They could have done that last year. Or the year before. Or introduced a points system for non-EU migrants?

In 2014, 264,000 people from the EU came to live in the UK. But at the same time 287,000 came to live here from OUTSIDE the EU!

If migration is such a problem, why haven't the Govt put a stop to the bit they can control, the non-EU migrants, which account for MORE than the EU migrants???

In other words, it's nonsense!

I'm glad there other people who feel same as me. I take keen interest in politics and debate just never felt strongly one way or another. I'm 50/50 still.

I do find it hard to believe the rest of Europe will stop trading with us if we leave Though apprently we buy one fifth of all German manufactured cars so it would be in their best interest to set up trade agreements ASAP.

I do think everyone should be made to vote then at least everyone bears burden of results not free to moan because it wasn't them!

Intelligent people don't vote for 'the same' when they know that 'the same' won't stay 'the same', it will morph into something else aka ever greater union

...from which Britain is now exempt.

still now you are missing the point - the funding we get from the EU is targeted - so we no longer have the same amount of control over what we spend it on we had...and it has been chipped away by bureaucracy ....
The law thing doesn't change what I said - I very carefully didn't say the neighbours told you EVERYTHING you had to do - where you had to work, or where you went on holiday...just some things.

But actually my main argument is the lack of democracy...and after reading what Indridcold said about Gisela Stuart - my point of view is exactly that.
She emerged from that experience totally disillusioned, and convinced that the only option is to break and re-make the whole thing.
I think Brexit would be the shake up the EU needs to reform itself - which is way overdue- it has been saying it will and it is for many years but it is hasn't ... the reform from within argument has been done to death.

As I said we are a net contributor - without us Germany, France, etc - the other net contributors are going to have to contribute more...so leaving will have an impact on the EU ......

If you can't decide, why not take some advice from the Swiss.

Switzerland has just decided to withdraw its application to join the EU.

If we were not in the EU, would we want to join?

www.briefreport.co.uk/news/now-switzerland-withdraws-its-application-to-join-the-eu-just-a-week-before-british-vote-4204853.html

Milly Staying in something you are already in is not the same question as wanting to join something. It is a totally different question, which others have already addressed upthread.

"Back to the giving your neighbour the £600 - ok they give you £400 back - but tell you that has to be used to paint your house they colour they choose - or on plants for your garden which they want you to have..."

No, you jointly choose the colour of the houses on your street, and the planting out the front. The back garden is still yours, but you can also pool your shed budgets so you can share a nice summer house, take it in turns to have the kids in your garden for the afternoon, and carpool to save on petrol and pollution. It's neighbourly and constructive.

You don't have to sign up for the swinging..

As Steve Hilton, Camerons ex advisor has said - they have to balance out non eu migration with eu migration.

NOn eu migration is tightly controlled, have to have good job, money in the bank, and non eu migration is far lower down work scale, many un skilled labourours, farm pickers etc. If they dramatically cut non eu migration they have to cut skills and people we need in the UK, to make room for people who we have no idea what they are going to offer us....veg picking, car washing....

once EU migration is under control, then they can work on the NON eu migration.

Steve Hilton says ( The times June 13th)

" They don't like hearing there is nothing that can be done about...
( immigration) which comes back to another pesky question, Who Governs Britain? I simply cant understand why its outlandish or unreasonable about the proposition that the BRITISH government should govern Britain.

A British Government that actually governed Britain could actually decide who comes here to work. My advice would be to stop importing unlimited numbers of Hungarian Waiters who maybe charming but don't add much to the value of our economy, ( I am Hungarian I can say that) and start welcoming Scientists and entrepreneurs from India, China, and so on who we are forced to exclude because we have to put EU immigration first.
We should put the British economy first"

The failure to understand or appreciate the "Take control" argument, to dismiss it as airy fairy conceptual nonsense, to miss the point that its the basis of the whole economy immigration, and other highly practical concerns is the reason the remain camp is loosing. "

YABU. No one can give "advice" because no one knows! You want certainty - a luxury no one has in this life.

Akire, I don't think anyone is saying they'll stop trading with is - only that our exports to the EU may decrease if we're outside the EEA because tariffs could make them too expensive for buyers who can switch to a supplier inside the EU.

I find it equally hard to believe we'd stop buying German manufactured cars - particularly as it would be our government determining the level of tariff (and thus making them more expensive) and German cars are generally towards the more expensive end of our market anyway. I guess the government could slap a 20% tariff on automotive imports but that would make nearly all the cars we buy more expensive. I suspect German carmakers also realise this.

Meanwhile, most of the cars we manufacture here are for export, and around half of them go to the EU.

What pissing me off is the 'you are an idiot if you vote....(insert either option) '

No you aren't. It is extremely difficult because we just don't know what will happen either way . the vicious mud slinging and verbal intimidation is shameful.

No, you jointly choose the colour of the houses on your street, and the planting out the front. The back garden is still yours, but you can also pool your shed budgets so you can share a nice summer house, take it in turns to have the kids in your garden for the afternoon, and carpool to save on petrol and pollution. It's neighbourly and constructive

Ha!!! I am perfectly happy and capable of choosing all these things myself thanks, none of my neighbours love their gardens like I love mine, I get on with them all but our tastes are widely different.

We get on far better as neighbours with light easy contact and a get together once a year, its perfect. We collude when we need too, we don't need to part of a neighborhood co op to do that!!

There are some very simple guidelines you can follow.

1. If Nigel Farage is saying it it's a lie.
2. If anyone claims there will be no negative financial impact it's a lie

Andrea Leadsom

On June 24th, nothing will have changed. All of the thousands of EU directives and regulations that we have ever agreed to are enshrined in UK law, so it will take legislation to revoke and repeal any of those laws. As is clear there will be a period of up to two years during which time all EU treaties will continue to apply to the UK before we will finally leave. During this period Government will work on:

1. continuing tariff-free trade with the EU
2. a "presumption of continuity" for all free trade agreements we are currently party to as a member of the EU
3. free trade agreements with other countries we currently do not have agreements with
4. immigration rules (safeguarding all who have moved here or to Europe whose position will be totally secure) once we finally leave
5. co-operation on areas around extradition and intelligence sharing

In the short term, I believe voting to leave will have little effect on our economy, but I would give a massive health warning here that NOBODY can predict the future! In the longer term, again my crystal ball is not perfect, but I would set great store by the likes of JCB, Dyson and all the SMEs who employ 16 million people in this country that the economic future would be brighter out.

One key factor is that taking control of our borders will allow us to manage the current unbearable pressure on school places, doctors and our housing market. These have a huge impact on people's well-being so it's closely linked to their sense of economic well-being. Of course, the competition from young job-seekers coming from Europe has, according to the Bank of England, also held down pay at the lower end and for those just starting out, so easing that pressure will be good for jobs and standards of living.

One final thought - there will be an annual £10bn independence dividend if we leave. That's the money we pay to the EU currently that we don't get back in any shape or form. It could be used to boost our NHS, to reduce VAT on fuel bills, to provide greater support for international trade. There are lots of choices and it's a vast sum of money!

"No, you jointly choose the colour of the houses on your street, and the planting out the front. The back garden is still yours, but you can also pool your shed budgets so you can share a nice summer house, take it in turns to have the kids in your garden for the afternoon, and carpool to save on petrol and pollution. It's neighbourly and constructive

Ha!!! I am perfectly happy and capable of choosing all these things myself thanks, none of my neighbours love their gardens like I love mine, I get on with them all but our tastes are widely different.

We get on far better as neighbours with light easy contact and a get together once a year, its perfect. We collude when we need too, we don't need to part of a neighborhood co op to do that!!"

And yet what is forgotten is by paying into the neighbourhood pot we manage how our neighbours behave AND get access to the local shops with a membership card and reduced prices.

If we choose not to we have no say in how our neighbours behave and we pay higher prices at the shops.

DrSeth You are right to say that staying in something you are already in is not the same question as wanting to join something.

However I would still advise the OP to take note of the fact that the Swiss have finally decided to bin their long shelved EU membership application.

It's interesting to think about why they are no longer even considering joining.

No.

i dont want a say in how my neighbours paints his house, thats up to him.

I want to spend my own money where and how I see fit, I don't want to give my neighbours my money to spend on what they see fit, we all have very different interests and tastes.

i want my neighbours to do their thing and I will do mine, with my own money thank you. Because we have space, people who are very different, all get on very well. Start forcing us, to meet more often and have to agree on things, I know we will start to fall out and there will be problems. But ulimalty we don't need this communist style co op thanks, we are very happy as we are.

Your also missing out, I have to endure an open house at all times with my neighbours.

I have to allow them access to my one bathroom and loo, kitchen, fridge, one may turn up, another may turn up with twenty guests, I would never ever know how much food to get in, what provisions to supply, whether I could feed my own children, long qeues for the bathroom......neighbour A guests may start a fight with neighbour D...

I would in short, never ever know where I am and how much money I would need, to host un planned guests.

It would be chaos. It is chaos.